EVE General Discussion

Whew I can't stand quote structures, I suck at forum warrioring so I will respond with numbered posts:

1. This is under the assumption that the entire body is essential. In my point of view only the brain is essential to define a conscious being and the rest of the body is just a vehicle. Therefore a copy of the brain with the exact same thoughts and memories is a copy, the rest is variable.

2. This does not make sense from a viewpoint called reality. You cannot remove yourself from the point of view of a human, you cannot view Bob 0, Bob 1 and Bob 2 simultaneously, and cannot use them as a reference for one another. Bob 0 is the same stream of consciousness that Bob 1 is, Bob 2 is a copy of that stream, but is not the original stream.

3. The source is the source as there is nothing else to view it as. There is no previous Bob in time as a reference as he does not exist. You cannot compare something to another that no longer exists, your memories are inconsequential to the comparison.

4. That consciousness is separate from the neurons and fleshy mass that make up the brain. That there are an infinite number of instances of a "being" up to the smallest measurement of time possible. Only by assuming these points can you separate existence from flesh, but these assumptions are based off of nothing. They have no validity.

5. I'm copying the brain, everything else is inconsequential.

And I've never heard of science or philosophy bringing to table any evidence that the a-time vs b-time debate is substantial without metaphysical assertions that are likewise baseless.

In terms of the lore, I believe, the Intakis seem satisfied with the process, and their Idamas or Reborn (as by non-technical means) had something to do with developing it.

Philosophically, though, I think it has to do with different levels of reality. If you type a word, say, erase it, then type it again, is it the same word? Depends on how you look at it. If the tech has been able to reach the "semantic level" (I suppose it could be called), so that it is indeed the same word, then there you go.

Hasn't it been shown, anyway, that widely separated particles can act as the same particle, where if you affect one then you affect the other in the exact same way (I believe I've read about this). That might offer a clue as to what's involved.

An interesting topic.

It carries the same meaning to you. Is it the same arrangement of sub-atomic particles? Statistically unlikely. It all depends on viewpoint.



Yes these are called tangled particles I believe, and they have also been hinted to perhaps "communicate" or copy each other's movements faster than the speed of light, though this needs more testing.

That seems rather contradictory. If the body is not a part of what distinguishes one identity from the other, then you can't use it to determine which one is a “copy”. Either it's relevant or it isn't. If all you're using is the brain, then the brain is all you can use to distinguish who's who.
Bob₂ is as much a copy of it as Bob₁ is, or rather, both are continuations of the same stream. The moment you designate a Bob₁ and/or a Bob₂, Bob₀ no longer exists — it's a fork point, nothing else. Neither of them will be the same as the source unless you keep everything in a sate of stasis, in which case you can't distinguish between any of them because they're all the same.
Ok, but that's not really what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the distinction between original, copy, and simulacrum — consciousness isn't even a factor at this point. What I'm saying is that what we're dealing with in EVE is a copying process (it's magic Jovian, so never mind how it works) whereby the copy is of such fidelity that there is no way of distinguishing it and that the only way to know that a copy has been made is to artificially introduce such a point in time — a before and an after — and hope that there is a difference between the two. At this point, you can no longer talk about copies, because in order to identify it at all, you have to have something that isn't like the original — all you have is a simulacra.

It is a separate stream, yes, but it has no more or less primacy than any other stream that is branched from the same point. Both streams are equally separate from each other; both streams have transitioned from the same point; both are equally modified from that point.
Pretty much. This conversation is actually talking about something completely different than capsuleers, since they specifically don't have to deal with the original|copy problem — that's the whole point: they just have a single stream, and it's being synched up and transferred all over the place without ever existing in two places at once in any meaningful way (specifically, in the cases when it does, one stream is instantly terminated). There is no true original, because it was something quite different around which the infomorph was built.

The only ones who needs to worry about this quandry is the Broker, and he doesn't particularly worry about it — it's all him (although you have to wonder how he deals with the commit-merge conflicts).

If say I Die in eve and get cloned after my pod goes boom

Am i still you know ME ME ?

the 2 underlining questions

Does the transferring mind thingy, take what makes you you with it?

Now what makes a person a person is the experience they had growing up which our whole brain contributes to that. sections of your brain actually grow thus making the person.

The other very unanswerable question is Why am i in control of ME and not someone else?

Basically it comes down to for pod pilots, Does the cloning device Take what makes ME ME into the new body thus I live forever?

or is it a "The 6th Day" Thing (movie http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0216216/ )

but we DO know that in eve to that when your pod goes Boom the brain thingy has to turn on at the right TIME ...to early and your a veggie and *dead dead* or to late the device fails

so the 6th day thing in meeting yourself wouldn't happened cause the older *clone* would be dead

Thus the question is ..is it just mirror a hard drive to another one and the host harddrive blows up from the process ?

or is it take (ME ME/soul w.e you want to call it)" to the other body ?

If you are talking about the being that is hearing and seeing through your senses right now, no when you mind transfer it's not you that steps out of the cloning vat, it's simply someone who has your memories, skills, identity and for all intents and purposes is now you. You do not fly through space with your conscious to the new body though, you are dead.

You proceed from a false premise. Twins are two entirely different people. Clones are fictitious duplicates of one person.

"Stream of Conciousness" is a term used in art to denote extemporaneous creativity, most commonly used in "stream of conciousness writing" where the author just writes down whatever comes to mind.

Conciousness, awareness of the self and ones surroundings to include awareness of ones own thoughts, can be argued to be the actual self sans physical manifestation. Cloning in the sense EVE uses it is transferring the conciousness (contrary to Tippia's assertion) into another physical organism ostensibly mapped from original DNA.

Identity IS the act of percieving (being concious of) oneself and being familiar with the perception. Identity infers a backward reference to previous experience within a present frame of reference - or the "now."

Were this possible IRL, yes, the person in question would be immortal within the physical realm of existence as long as there is a clone waiting for the consciousness to be inserted into. Should that not be the case, it is up to much debate as to what happens to the consciousness beyond the realm of physical existence...the problem being, nobody's ever come back (that we can be sure of) and told us.

EDIT: The dilemma, or thought conundrum, is that firstly, we've never cloned a human so we can't say for sure what the nature of the conciousness of a clone would be, and secondly, EVE's conceptualization of cloning infers a physical body is at rest somewhere (possibly some sort of cryogenic suspension), but is empty of any consciousness. To get into a debate about either as though they have characteristics one could assume reflect nature is arguing a moot point if there ever was one. (Moot in the original sense of the word meaning "the arguments are so wide and varied, it's folly to attempt.")

I will attempt to impart a little bit of original thought on the lot of you...





Envision a world where the electrical state of the brain can be broadcasted as is, in that very moment (like a snapshot of a photograph) as a complex electromagnetic signal. It would not be a copy of your brain but an actual projection of a single instant frozen in time, no different then if your body had been frozen in cryogenic stasis.


You are not assumed to be a different person after you thaw are you?

Then why then should you be different after your mind was broadcasted through space, if in fact, the carrier wave had sufficient complexity? You are assuming that when thoughts are beamed they are downloaded, like some kind of radio transmitter. But if you put your thinking cap on like the old science fiction writers, maybe you will be able to conceive... say... a signal that is more like a complex moving hologram? Like a Cortana from Halo moving through space, frozen in a single instant of thought and awareness (as if she were sleeping) shot through space on a carrier wave, as if she had been shot through a laser beam heading towards a distant star system. Could she not make it to her destination? Sure she could, and we will even say it's a subspace laser capable of exceeding the speed of light for good measure. This way she gets there faster


That highly complex and stable signal would then travel through the void intact, until it reached the appropriate vessel aka receptacle. That signal would then be reintegrated into a physical clone and vola, your brain has just been transported across space and time. Try to stop thinking about the limited world that you know, and endevour to think about something greater. Our modern day is unthinkable to people who lived 1,000 years ago, and as smart as you think that you are you can't imagine the world 1,000 years from this moment.




Signed,
Original thinker extraordinaire.