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Missile Damage Delay
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Billy McCandless
Zacharia Explorations Group
#21 - 2014-08-20 07:57:36 UTC
wunce ther wuz a mane who hadd a lidl two much

time on his handes he dint stop two thinck he wuz geddin oldre

Wen his nite cam to a ent, he trie to grassp four his larst frend and pre tent

Thart he culd wiss himsalf helth on a for leef clovver



sorry if furgot wat we wur tawkin abart

oh yeh miss eyels

miss eyels our gud becos yoo downt need two wurrie abart your gridde our stufe ore trance versle butt amyounishun is annoyein

butt eye dew liek howe tehy cane blowe up teh ennymee beefour they hit their spaseship

"Thread locked for being deemed a total loss." - ISD Ezwal
Pok Nibin
Doomheim
#22 - 2014-08-20 12:46:45 UTC
Billy McCandless wrote:
wunce ther wuz a mane who hadd a lidl two much

time on his handes he dint stop two thinck he wuz geddin oldre

Wen his nite cam to a ent, he trie to grassp four his larst frend and pre tent

Thart he culd wiss himsalf helth on a for leef clovver



sorry if furgot wat we wur tawkin abart

oh yeh miss eyels

miss eyels our gud becos yoo downt need two wurrie abart your gridde our stufe ore trance versle butt amyounishun is annoyein

butt eye dew liek howe tehy cane blowe up teh ennymee beefour they hit their spaseship
This might be something to respond to if you could make out what he said.

The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#23 - 2014-08-20 12:54:39 UTC
It rather simple really as your missiles have a flight time and they leave the launch tube at the beginning of the cycle.
This obviously means that for short ranges your missiles may well hit the target before the firing cycle is finished.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#24 - 2014-08-20 12:55:38 UTC
Claud Tiberius wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Even if you are not contesting, you get more applied DPS from a turret ship than a missile one which mean faster sites for faster payout.

Unless the turret misses. Which never happens for missiles Cool


Tell me more about all the penetrating and wrecking shots your missiles get.
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#25 - 2014-08-20 13:01:28 UTC
Issue is not within the actual damage mechanics but your object of concern not being there when the 2nd and 3rd wave of your missile volleys hit the target thus making those 2nd and 3rd volleys wasted.
Pok Nibin
Doomheim
#26 - 2014-08-20 13:07:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Pok Nibin
Baneken wrote:
Issue is not within the actual damage mechanics but your object of concern not being there when the 2nd and 3rd wave of your missile volleys hit the target thus making those 2nd and 3rd volleys wasted.
That's simple enough to manage. Don't fire the second and third volleys. Let nature take its course. However, that won't remedy the chicken littles who have put a curse on missile boats. Now "it's a known fact" missile ships are SOL. That is no BS. CCP should take note. How these incursions are scored should be altered so a huge percentage of people don't get left out. . . OR...will missiles and launchers fall to the wayside? How big of a problem would it be to phase out a weapon system nobody uses anymore? That looks like a ton of work to me. Cruise missiles, torpedos, FoFs...defensive...seems a lot of time and effort has gone into something just to give it short shrift with a scoring calibration.

The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#27 - 2014-08-20 13:49:34 UTC
My missiles aren't too slow, the target just gives up before they arrive.

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I invented Tiericide
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#28 - 2014-08-20 13:57:42 UTC
Well, they could make the missiles shoot at the end of the cycle but that would likely mean they would also have to recode something else as well in the modules mechanics and animations.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#29 - 2014-08-20 14:18:55 UTC
Pok Nibin wrote:
Baneken wrote:
Issue is not within the actual damage mechanics but your object of concern not being there when the 2nd and 3rd wave of your missile volleys hit the target thus making those 2nd and 3rd volleys wasted.
That's simple enough to manage. Don't fire the second and third volleys. Let nature take its course. However, that won't remedy the chicken littles who have put a curse on missile boats. Now "it's a known fact" missile ships are SOL. That is no BS. CCP should take note. How these incursions are scored should be altered so a huge percentage of people don't get left out. . . OR...will missiles and launchers fall to the wayside? How big of a problem would it be to phase out a weapon system nobody uses anymore? That looks like a ton of work to me. Cruise missiles, torpedos, FoFs...defensive...seems a lot of time and effort has gone into something just to give it short shrift with a scoring calibration.


People just need to realize missiles are not the best tool in the shed for incursion. We no longer mine in battleship for the same reason. The people understood what had to be done to optimize the fleets and ask members to follow those optimization.
Edmund Andre
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#30 - 2014-08-20 16:25:41 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Pok Nibin wrote:
Baneken wrote:
Issue is not within the actual damage mechanics but your object of concern not being there when the 2nd and 3rd wave of your missile volleys hit the target thus making those 2nd and 3rd volleys wasted.
That's simple enough to manage. Don't fire the second and third volleys. Let nature take its course. However, that won't remedy the chicken littles who have put a curse on missile boats. Now "it's a known fact" missile ships are SOL. That is no BS. CCP should take note. How these incursions are scored should be altered so a huge percentage of people don't get left out. . . OR...will missiles and launchers fall to the wayside? How big of a problem would it be to phase out a weapon system nobody uses anymore? That looks like a ton of work to me. Cruise missiles, torpedos, FoFs...defensive...seems a lot of time and effort has gone into something just to give it short shrift with a scoring calibration.


People just need to realize missiles are not the best tool in the shed for incursion. We no longer mine in battleship for the same reason. The people understood what had to be done to optimize the fleets and ask members to follow those optimization.


Yeah... lets not hope/press for a change to missiles just cause this one instance they're not proving to be the weapon of choice... bring the right tool for the job...
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#31 - 2014-08-20 16:37:26 UTC
Edmund Andre wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Pok Nibin wrote:
Baneken wrote:
Issue is not within the actual damage mechanics but your object of concern not being there when the 2nd and 3rd wave of your missile volleys hit the target thus making those 2nd and 3rd volleys wasted.
That's simple enough to manage. Don't fire the second and third volleys. Let nature take its course. However, that won't remedy the chicken littles who have put a curse on missile boats. Now "it's a known fact" missile ships are SOL. That is no BS. CCP should take note. How these incursions are scored should be altered so a huge percentage of people don't get left out. . . OR...will missiles and launchers fall to the wayside? How big of a problem would it be to phase out a weapon system nobody uses anymore? That looks like a ton of work to me. Cruise missiles, torpedos, FoFs...defensive...seems a lot of time and effort has gone into something just to give it short shrift with a scoring calibration.


People just need to realize missiles are not the best tool in the shed for incursion. We no longer mine in battleship for the same reason. The people understood what had to be done to optimize the fleets and ask members to follow those optimization.


Yeah... lets not hope/press for a change to missiles just cause this one instance they're not proving to be the weapon of choice... bring the right tool for the job...


The point is, you don't fix missile because one type of fleet find them sub-par. Missile have problems but you target these problem for a potential fix, not the lack of utilization in incursions. Even if missile boat were just as good as turret ones, they would not get used all that much because a vindi is a better short range boat and mach/nightmare are better ranged boat. The fleet will always end up being formed of those ships because they are the top performer. If they are available, they will get picked over other things no matter if missile are as efficient as turrets or not.
Pok Nibin
Doomheim
#32 - 2014-08-22 15:52:53 UTC
Would I shamelessly bump this because I think it's worthy of attention? Naaaaah.

The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.
Desimus Maximus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#33 - 2014-08-22 18:59:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Desimus Maximus
Common misconception, much to their unwanted surprise, is that a missile volley does the same dmg as a gun volley. This is wrong. A missile volley will do 3-4 times the amount of dmg a single gun volley will.

I will bet that the only time a (decently fit and skilled) player needs to warp out of a lvl IV mission is when it is against Guristas firing missiles at them. I've never had to leave a mission against a turret based faction simply because their shots have a great chance to miss and falloff is kryptonie to turrets.. their shot dmg is pure chance.

Missiles will hit 100% of the time and do max dmg (based on skills and target resists only, not a roll of the dice) 100% of the time.

I say fly your missiles. I would bet that it would take fewer missile based snipers to pop a long range incursion target than turret based.

FOR THE STATE!
Vyl Vit
#34 - 2014-08-25 23:49:12 UTC
I love my missile boat for level IVs. I can hit at outrageous ranges with amazing power. Getting in close enough for the scram/web crutches to hit me? Ain't gonna happen. And, I don't do incursions because missile captains are not allowed. This has been very disappointing, but I'm not giving up my missiles for that. I was, however, quite surprised to find this to be true about incursions. I'll bet a lot of Caldari are more than a little miffed.

I'd love to try incursions. Maybe how they're "scored" could be changed to accommodate what is a very important EVE weapons system. One can only hope.

Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.
Lucretia DeWinter
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2014-08-26 08:16:49 UTC
Billy McCandless wrote:
wunce ther wuz a mane who hadd a lidl two much

time on his handes he dint stop two thinck he wuz geddin oldre

Wen his nite cam to a ent, he trie to grassp four his larst frend and pre tent

Thart he culd wiss himsalf helth on a for leef clovver



sorry if furgot wat we wur tawkin abart

oh yeh miss eyels

miss eyels our gud becos yoo downt need two wurrie abart your gridde our stufe ore trance versle butt amyounishun is annoyein

butt eye dew liek howe tehy cane blowe up teh ennymee beefour they hit their spaseship



Feersumly good post :)
Angeal MacNova
Holefood Inc.
Warriors of the Blood God
#36 - 2014-08-26 12:13:37 UTC
I know of two that'll argue till they are blue in the face that missiles are just fine and that it's "about the right tool for the job" Roll

I understand the idea behind picking the right tool for the job but this shouldn't include your choice of primary weapon. In other words, you wouldn't bring an exploration ship to an incursion but you should be able to use any weapon type of the appropriate caliber.

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/goodnight-sweet-prince/

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/the-untold-story/

CCP's true, butthurt, colors.

Because those who can't do themselves keep others from doing too.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#37 - 2014-08-26 13:08:12 UTC
Angeal MacNova wrote:
I know of two that'll argue till they are blue in the face that missiles are just fine and that it's "about the right tool for the job" Roll

I understand the idea behind picking the right tool for the job but this shouldn't include your choice of primary weapon. In other words, you wouldn't bring an exploration ship to an incursion but you should be able to use any weapon type of the appropriate caliber.



You also usually don't bring auto-cannon boat to HQ fleet unless you are running terribly low on blaster boat. Same for non tach laser boat. Getting a rail boat in a HQ fleet will also be quite the challenge. More so than missile I would guess. Fleet will take the best available. It's not impossible to get in with a missile boat just the same as it's not impossible to get in fleet with other poor fitting choice. Even if missile were instant hit, you would need more diverse fit in the fleet to help your missile perform because the damage calculation require you to bloom the target sig to land solid hits even on a stationary target. Turret boat only need the vindis to get their ass out of their heads and webs the targets down to molass speed and the solid hits will start happening.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#38 - 2014-08-26 13:13:59 UTC
Desimus Maximus wrote:
Common misconception, much to their unwanted surprise, is that a missile volley does the same dmg as a gun volley. This is wrong. A missile volley will do 3-4 times the amount of dmg a single gun volley will.


Missiles will hit 100% of the time and do max dmg (based on skills and target resists only, not a roll of the dice) 100% of the time.



Missile damage is not only based on skills and resist, they also take into account missile explosion radius, explosion velocity, target sig radius and target velocity. The missile also can't do like turret and only drive one of the target's variable to an extreme limit but need both to be withing an acceptable range to be effective. A stationary frigate will still get hit hard by turret boat because it generate no transversal. The missile will have issue against it because the sig radius is too low. On the other side, even if your target has his sig bloomed to hell and back, you can still land terrible damage if it also happen to go fast.

Turret only need good webs on target to make hits land, missile would also need TP support which would make the fleet more of a pain to field.

Also, missile don't do more damage per volley. Certainly not in the 3-4x range.
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