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[PROPOSAL] Implement FW station occupancy and sentry gun fire
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Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#21 - 2011-12-05 18:51:01 UTC
Hwong Jian wrote:

\Edit: And, Hans, it makes absolutely no sense to me why a State Protectorate station would allow Gallente or Minmatar to dock. That, specifically, is the problem I have with low sec docking rights.

I ******* hate the fact that more than a few Gallente pilots have carriers docked in Caldari FW stations.


I absolutely agree with you, it doesn't make sense that we would be allowed to dock at all. But there is lot of "realistically, that would never happen" arguments that have to be tempered in order to create manageable game play in a reasonable amount of time.

Again, I'm not at all shutting down your idea of denying docking rights, you're not the only one who feels strongly about this, I'm just explaining my own personal convictions regarding docking restrictions.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Kade Jeekin
Masuat'aa Matari
Ushra'Khan
#22 - 2011-12-06 00:11:55 UTC
Quote:
Everyone wants consequence to ownership, so here's what I propose:

Does CCP? They never programmed in any consequences. They don't seem keen to do so. Either because they don't share our vision of what is and what is not reasonable in the EVE universe, or because they aren't keen to rewrite the code on these things.

Lets take a few examples from EVE as it is:

  • In NPC hisec, when you shoot on a convoy belonging to the same corporation as the station owner, then the station guns do open fire on you for a period but then when the agression timer expires you can dock there without consqequence.
  • In NPC nullsec you can farm pirate spawns till you're blue in the face then go dock in that pirate's NPC station without consequence.
  • In PC nullsec the station owners can determine station access by setting their own standings.
  • In PC nullsec there are no station guns.


However, despite that, we can dream, so here I go.

Proposal 1: Switch faction ownership of stations in systems that are lost to enemy factions.
What consequences would this have other than cosmetic? In itself is has no consequences.

Hence,

Proposal 2: Have enemy stations fire upon the opposing station, much like GCC - I take it that you mean to have them fire on the opposing militia capsuleers. Otherwise it makes no sense to me.

As others have pointed out, this in itself is not enough. i.e. what happens to the agents? can the opposing militia still dock?

The best consequence would be station lock out and agents switching faction. This could obviously be diluted to reduction/increased cost of station services and locking down the agents.

Perhaps the station should be made vulnerable to conquering by the opposing militia when the occupancy switches? Rather than just falling at the same time?

Hans Jagerblitzen, you have done some stirling work in pushing the faction warfare cause forward. I just think you were a but hasty in putting forward this proposal as the lowest hanging fruit. So, although I think they are a good starting point for discussion. I also think that you are diluting your other thread be making this one.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#23 - 2011-12-06 00:32:55 UTC
Kade Jeekin wrote:

Hans Jagerblitzen, you have done some stirling work in pushing the faction warfare cause forward. I just think you were a but hasty in putting forward this proposal as the lowest hanging fruit. So, although I think they are a good starting point for discussion. I also think that you are diluting your other thread be making this one.


Well traditionally, [PROPOSAL] threads have been pretty specific in scope, focus on one manageable, implementable change to the game at a time. They are less so the place for sweeping overhauls, complicated manifestos, and speculation about the places a system can go.

I agree, this is really a drop in the bucket. But we still have more patches underway with Incarna, and it appears CCP is indeed tackling things regarding Faction Warfare that are minimal on the programming end. A station tweak, with sentry guns firing on opposing factions, should be easy to deploy. Thus, now is the time to throw it down on the table for approval from the community, because it could theoretically be implemented even before they move on to Summer expansion.

In case you all didn't notice, there are now more faction warfare systems as of the latest patch. The plex spawning timer fix is not where CCP's work on Faction Warfare is ending by any means.

What those systems are, I have no idea. But they're there, in the patch notes, clear for anyone to see. It is in this spirit I put forth a simple proposal regarding sentry guns on militia-owned stations, though it by no means should be seen as a substitute for the "big picture" discussions in my other thread. It's just one piece of the overall puzzle, one that can be done now regardless of what else gets developed down the road.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#24 - 2011-12-06 14:30:32 UTC
Thinking about the fact that plexing is still a silly pve grind, I have to say, I would only want consequences like this to happen *after* they remove the npcs and let the militia players start fighting for occupancy.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Wendi Wu
Curiously Incompetent
#25 - 2011-12-06 17:33:51 UTC
I'm dubious about this idea.

The problem is that as Cearain says, plexing is still really really boring. So what this would effectively do would be to force FW pilots to do an activity that they hate.

At the moment enthusiasm in the Amarr Militia for plexing is at rock bottom, as demonstrated by the fact that the Minmatar were able to capture Huola with the vast majority of the Amarr not doing anything about it. I've tried to encourage Amarr pilots to go plexing in the past and it's really really difficult - very few care anymore. And I can't really blame them - I'm probably one of about ten Amarr who still plexes and I have to say, if I had the choice between plexing every day and quitting FW, I'd probably quit FW.

So while this would get people interested in plexing again in the short term, I think in the long term it would result on whichever side is winning just locking the other side's systems down. And once that's happened, are newbies really going to want to join a militia with the odds stacked against them?
Damassys Kadesh
Royal Khanid Hunting Society
#26 - 2011-12-10 00:07:45 UTC
This thread is generating a few fresh ideas to flesh out, which should be done in the current discussion thread, as Hans pointed out. I will place my comments on them there.

As for this proposal and it's relevant rebuttals :

Switching station properties in some form: BIG YES
Docking lockout: HUUUGE NO (I have the same opinion that Hans has expressed numerous times)
Station guns: YES (forces fighting away from stations)
Increased redocking timer: SURE
Agents made unavailable: YES (hostages!)
Services negatively affected: YES

Sourem Itharen > Congratulations Lady Kadesh, you have been selected by trial of fire and blood, under the watchful eyes of God, to represent Lord Khanid as his champion in the Imperial Succession trials -YC117
Anya Sulii
Angry Mustellid
#27 - 2011-12-10 00:53:47 UTC
Wendi's more of a plexer hunter. If I open a plex there is a good chance that I'll see Wendi at some point.
Anyway, back to the actual proposal...

Quote:
1) Switch faction ownership of stations in systems that are lost to enemy factions. Auga has, for example, a Tribal Liberation Force station. Should the Amarr invade and seize Auga via plexing, that station should be renamed "24th Imperial Crusade Occupied Logistics Support" or something along those lines. The architecture of the station might, or might not be flipped in accordance to CCP's judgement on whether it would realistically be dismantled and replaced, or simply occupied by enemy troops.


I believe a simple name change would be more appropriate. Take a look at a station; it is HUGE. Far easier to occupy it with troops and possibly your own agents.

Quote:
2) Have enemy stations fire upon the opposing station, much like GCC. It currently makes no sense that I, a soldier in the Tribal Liberation Force, can hang outside a station run by the 24th Imperial Crusade, and while the capsuleers will fire away, the station owners seemingly don't care. This creates a "safe zone" for owners of a system, and adds consequences to system loss.


In order for this to really work you would have to beef up the guns. To instadeath probably. I say leave the guns alone. No one wants to be killed by anything NPC.

Quote:
Some militia advocates the banning of enemy docking at stations, but this would unfairly punish the new players FW is designed to attract, who would be deeply frustrated if they didnt personally have the ability to haul out and move their stuff safely if it were locked out of a station.


I am one of those militia members. New players would not be too endangered if the veterans in militia warn them about placing all of their gear in a hotly contested system or advise them to base themselves out of a system that isn't constantly under threat.

I am aware that with the current state of things in Minmatar/Amarr FW this would be a crushing blow to all 24th pilots if this was implemented anytime soon. I would be perfectly OK with a 'cosmic reset' so that everyone starts off with all of their systems back. As for the stuff stashed away in enemy systems, keep an eye on the patch notes and move your stuff when you see it.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#28 - 2011-12-10 09:32:38 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
+1

The rival navies shoot you in high sec, enemy faction ships shoot you in plexes, the enemy factions station guns (FDU, State Protectorate, 24th Imperial Crusade, Tribal Liberation Front) should fire on you if you are undocked and near the station.

Each faction has at least four invulnerable stations (not in low sec FW zone). That ought to be enough to make some isk if their space gets overrun.

Edit:

Using format of previous post:
Switching station properties in some form: YES
Docking lockout: No
Station guns: YES
Increased redocking timer: No
Agents made unavailable: YES (hostages!)
Services negatively affected: YES
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