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Bounty System Rework SUGGESTION

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Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2014-08-24 07:31:07 UTC
Zigzigzigzigzigzigzigzig TireIrons wrote:


But other than that, I like this. I don't imagine it would be terribly difficult for them to code this into the game either.


This may be the case, but I personally prefer not to make any assumptions about the insurmountable work that CCP coders have to do from day to day. I think they would be their own best judges of it.


Also, don't miss Scipio's excellent post on the previous page!

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Zigzigzigzigzigzigzigzig TireIrons
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#82 - 2014-08-24 07:38:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Zigzigzigzigzigzigzigzig TireIrons
Scipio Artelius wrote:
I don't pretend to have a solution to bounties, but I've often thought it would be good if there were a better system.

The current system doesn't provide much in the way of content for play and on that basis alone, I think it's worth looking at alternatives.

Aside from tweeks to the current system, the only thing I can think of that wouldn't be easily abused would be along the lines of Sibyyl's idea, combined with a form of the wardec mechanism.

Currently wardecs occur at Corp level, which is totally appropriate for a War. However, I don't see why it shouldn't be possible for individuals to pay Concord to declare a "vendetta" against another player and then be able to contract that vendetta out to a 3rd party.

The player would pay Concord, both the administration fee to establish the vendetta (eg. 50 million ISK) + a bounty amount. In return the player would receive a 30 day right, similar to a killright, but attached to the bounty.

The player would then be able to assign that right to someone else to carry out their vendetta. If the kill is achieved, the contracted killer/bounty hunter receives the full bounty payment from Concord, just as mission rewards are received now.

Some advantages:

- bounties/vendettas against low sec status characters would be meaningful as the bounty hunter has a known payout amount
- the player wanting another player killed has total control over who they assign that vendetta too. If they are stupid, they'll give it to an alt. The onus is on the contracting player to do their due diligence
- bounty hunting would be a meaningful profession

Some disadvantages:

- benefits rich players, with the ISK to place a vendetta on many individuals
- would allow something effectively the same as a killright against people you don't otherwise have a killright for
- could easily result in reprisal vendetta (I place one on you -> you place one back on me, tit for tat stuff)
- perma vendettas could be established against players, making it difficult for them to play

Abusable:

- not that I can immediately see. The fee to establish the right means that it will always cost more than the bounty is worth alone

I don't have any clue if that is a reasonable system or not (I'm no game designer by a long shot), but I'm not against seeing changes in the bounty system. The last of the disadvantages I listed with just some quick thought makes me thing the system is not reasonable (but then again, players need to manage their own level of risk, so that is just part of that too).

e: I see that in many respects, what I've proposed is more similar to some of the discussion already. Scipio Post Please Ignore (SPPI - I should make a Corp).


One way to keep it from being abusable is to make the isk charge per consecutive bounty/wardecc on the same target within a dedicated timeframe an exponential increase alongside an additive increase on bounties made on separate targets within the same timeframe.

ie, 100 mil for the first dec. 400 for the second. 1600 for the third. (resetting each month)

any multiple bounties on separate targets increases it by 200

100m for first dec on target 1
300 for first dec on target 2
500 for first dec on target 3
2b for second dec on target 1 2 or 3
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#83 - 2014-08-24 07:48:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Zigzigzigzigzigzigzigzig TireIrons wrote:

One way to keep it from being abusable is to make the isk charge per consecutive bounty/wardecc on the same target within a dedicated timeframe an exponential increase alongside an additive increase on bounties made on separate targets within the same timeframe.

ie, 100 mil for the first dec. 400 for the second. 1600 for the third. (resetting each month)

any multiple bounties on separate targets increases it by 200

100m for first dec on target 1
300 for first dec on target 2
500 for first dec on target 3
2b for second dec on target 1 2 or 3


And you're still claiming that you *aren't* trying to kill bounties?

"one per month or else the cost is quadrupled hurr hurr hurr!" (oh, and still L2math, since that's not an exponential increase by definition. Exponential does not just mean "big" )

So, why don't you just ask for bounties to be removed entirely?

[edit: And apparently, all wardecs into the bargain. Roll

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2014-08-24 07:54:53 UTC
Scip, I think that tying kill contracts to wardecc mechanics makes it too complicated.


Instead, to keep things simple.. the contract value alone can be the motivator for the kill (it's up to the person issuing the contract to make it worthwhile). The so-called bounty hunter would have to find their own way to circumvent the laws of the system they are in in order to achieve the kill.


The bounty hunter could even declare a wardecc himself to move things along if he wants (but it would be on the BH and not the contract issuer). For NPC corps, a previous suggestion from Kaarous could be useful.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#85 - 2014-08-24 07:59:46 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

The bounty hunter could even declare a wardecc himself to move things along if he wants (but it would be on the BH and not the contract issuer). For NPC corps, a previous suggestion from Kaarous could be useful.


The best system I could think of back then for such a thing is to increase bounty payout percentages for players under an active wardec, but even that is open to potential abuse with alts.

And, to be honest, the health of the game is less damaged by a largely ineffective bounty system than by one whose payouts can be abused.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#86 - 2014-08-24 08:05:46 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
Scip, I think that tying kill contracts to wardecc mechanics makes it too complicated.

Instead, to keep things simple.. the contract value alone can be the motivator for the kill (it's up to the person issuing the contract to make it worthwhile). The so-called bounty hunter would have to find their own way to circumvent the laws of the system they are in in order to achieve the kill.

The bounty hunter could even declare a wardecc himself to move things along if he wants (but it would be on the BH and not the contract issuer). For NPC corps, a previous suggestion from Kaarous could be useful.

Yeah I like that idea, but with Kaarous's regarding increasing payout for bounties earned in wardec - but totally agree that is abusable very easily.
Derrick Miles
Death Rabbit Ky Oneida
#87 - 2014-08-24 08:07:14 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
Scip, I think that tying kill contracts to wardecc mechanics makes it too complicated.


Instead, to keep things simple.. the contract value alone can be the motivator for the kill (it's up to the person issuing the contract to make it worthwhile). The so-called bounty hunter would have to find their own way to circumvent the laws of the system they are in in order to achieve the kill.


The bounty hunter could even declare a wardecc himself to move things along if he wants (but it would be on the BH and not the contract issuer). For NPC corps, a previous suggestion from Kaarous could be useful.

I like the idea of keeping the contract alone as the incentive, although there is a problem I can see with choosing which bounty hunters can take the contract: only those with an existing, solid reputation are going to be picked over and over. To combat this I'd suggest an isk sink in the form of a fee based on the number of successfully completed contracts a bounty hunter has that is payed by the bounty issuer when choosing that hunter.

I also think it could be a similar interface as the current war dec but it could have two distinct mechanics: the ability of the hunters to offer their services on an upcoming bounty and the ability of the issuers to offer contracts to specific hunters.
Zigzigzigzigzigzigzigzig TireIrons
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#88 - 2014-08-24 08:07:58 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
Scip, I think that tying kill contracts to wardecc mechanics makes it too complicated.


Instead, to keep things simple.. the contract value alone can be the motivator for the kill (it's up to the person issuing the contract to make it worthwhile). The so-called bounty hunter would have to find their own way to circumvent the laws of the system they are in in order to achieve the kill.


The bounty hunter could even declare a wardecc himself to move things along if he wants (but it would be on the BH and not the contract issuer). For NPC corps, a previous suggestion from Kaarous could be useful.



Maybe both implementing a single target wardec option along with a bounty contract option would make it a bit more interesting.

Syb and DM's idea for the contract with an escrow set aside for payment when the contract is completed would be pretty good. Especially if it has the portion where you get to pick who is allowed to accept it and who is not. Then if it gets "abused", that's your fault for not checking up on your chosen bounty hunter(s).

Then scip's idea about the wardec with my plan for the pricing on wardec. The exorbitant pricing on consecutive or simultaneous single player wardecs (a feature that doesn't currently exist and thus doesn't limit any current freedoms....) would keep the wardec trolling to a minimum (although not completely negated). but at 400m for a second pop, you could just suicide gank in a battleship.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#89 - 2014-08-24 08:10:13 UTC
Speaking of wardec trolling, you should be very glad that I have work this weekend, or I'd have dropped a dec already.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Zigzigzigzigzigzigzigzig TireIrons
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#90 - 2014-08-24 08:14:54 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Speaking of wardec trolling, you should be very glad that I have work this weekend, or I'd have dropped a dec already.


oh noooooooooo. this guy isn't even in high/low sec 90% of the time. lol.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2014-08-24 08:25:34 UTC
Derrick Miles wrote:

I like the idea of keeping the contract alone as the incentive, although there is a problem I can see with choosing which bounty hunters can take the contract: only those with an existing, solid reputation are going to be picked over and over. To combat this I'd suggest an isk sink in the form of a fee based on the number of successfully completed contracts a bounty hunter has that is payed by the bounty issuer when choosing that hunter.

I also think it could be a similar interface as the current war dec but it could have two distinct mechanics: the ability of the hunters to offer their services on an upcoming bounty and the ability of the issuers to offer contracts to specific hunters.


Yes, Kane might end up getting preferential treatment for all contracts he decides to accept.

However, his competitors could offer ISK to the issuer, or favors, or tell them tales of their adventures (screenshots, forum peacocking, killboards).


So your question might be.. how does a new player hope to get into bounty hunting without having an elite killboard or resources to bargain with? My answer would be.. they don't. Boba Fett never struck me as a rookie.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Derrick Miles
Death Rabbit Ky Oneida
#92 - 2014-08-24 08:34:15 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
Derrick Miles wrote:

I like the idea of keeping the contract alone as the incentive, although there is a problem I can see with choosing which bounty hunters can take the contract: only those with an existing, solid reputation are going to be picked over and over. To combat this I'd suggest an isk sink in the form of a fee based on the number of successfully completed contracts a bounty hunter has that is payed by the bounty issuer when choosing that hunter.

I also think it could be a similar interface as the current war dec but it could have two distinct mechanics: the ability of the hunters to offer their services on an upcoming bounty and the ability of the issuers to offer contracts to specific hunters.


Yes, Kane might end up getting preferential treatment for all contracts he decides to accept.

However, his competitors could offer ISK to the issuer, or favors, or tell them tales of their adventures (screenshots, forum peacocking, killboards).


So your question might be.. how does a new player hope to get into bounty hunting without having an elite killboard or resources to bargain with? My answer would be.. they don't. Boba Fett never struck me as a rookie.

Well for new players with no killboards there would be no fee to accept them for the contract, since they have no bounty history. Inevitably people would spam the free and cheap hunters trying to get all the new players they can, even if it means risking the alts designed to farm the bounty.
Grog Aftermath
Doomheim
#93 - 2014-08-24 08:45:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Grog Aftermath
Zigzigzigzigzigzigzigzig wrote:
1) Placing a bounty on someone else will very very negatively impact your security standing (Only 1-2 bounties can be placed before your standing is close to criminal). Should you have a bad standing (number TBD. not sure if yellow or red is a good choice), you can't place bounties. This will inhibit people trolling often, or placing them for no reason.

2) A Bounty may ONLY be collected by a BOUNTY HUNTER, and only by the Bounty Hunter that has been assigned the target. Bounty Hunters MAY share contracts and funds should they wish (I.E. The target is too strong to take down solo)

3) The Bounty Hunter may collect a Bounty in any security space other than 1.0.The way this collection works is shown in the following formula.
Bounty Price = X
Value in ISK of items (including implants) Destroyed by the Bounty Hunter = Y
Bounty Collected = BC

4) When the original bounty is placed (24 hours delay on activation), the person who is placing the bounty may also add a description to the bounty (place of residence, known ships, reasons, and even last words. Refer to part 5). This will be given to the Bounty Hunter as a readable piece of mission items.

5) A player may place a bounty with a "LAST WORDS" feature. This feature is a bonus that automatically is sent to the now dead target via the Bounty Hunters eve mail system. It CAN be toggled by the bounty hunter. Whichever bounty placed the most money into this extra feature will have their text played.

6) A Bounty may be paid off for 25% more than the bounty that was placed, plus a percentage of total assets (2% maybe? 5%?)

7) A player can send email to the person who placed their bounties, but they will be sent to an anonymous email address and can be toggled off by the player who created the bounty. This will give people a chance to fix the wrongs they did should they decide to.

8) A Bounty Hunter can not receive a bounty from any target, or connected (owned by the target) accounts, or Corp mates of the target for 2 weeks. (This will keep Bounty Hunters from receiving unjustified backlash.)

9) The Mission from which you accept Bounty Targets will work like a normal mission. It has different rankings that you get by increasing standing. The lower the standing, the lower target and value of the bounties. This will have to be some form of formula which takes into account both the SP pilot AND the price of the bounty.

10) Every 3 hours, you will receive an eve mail with the system that your target is in. You MAY have up to 2 targets per level of ENFORCER skill. (Or Bounty Hunting. IDK lol). Since you will be looking for more than one bounty, you'll receive all of the bounty locations at once, along with the names of each target associated with the location. Should you collect a bounty, the locations of all the other targets are IMMEDIATELY transmitted via eve mail. This transition does not reset the normal 3 hour cycle. Thus, the better you are, the quicker you collect bounties.

11) When the contract is picked up from the appropriate level BOUNTY MISSION, the Bounty Hunter is given EACH piece of info from every bounty that is currently on the target.

12) There will be a completely separate, yet extremely similar NULL SEC BOUNTY HUNTER skill. These bounties CAN be placed by criminals, and when these are placed, the bounty is completed in portions. Each bounty requires that amount of ship/ modules/ implants/ other be destroyed in market value. A Bounty Hunter can drop this bounty at any point, and can also complete it piece by piece. (target has a 1bil bounty. loses a 10 million dollar ship. bounty hunter receives 20 million isk and the bounty is considered completed for quest purposes). However, the bounty does not go away until all the bounty is depleted. These bounties can ONLY be placed on criminals. They can ALSO be placed BY criminals. This mission only receives intel on location every 4 hours.

13) There is a BOUNTY CAP. Any time a person reaches this number (undetermined at this point) they remain suspect. Anyone can kill this suspect, however, only bounty hunters can receive the bounty. (Bounty Hunters that do not have the contract only receive 25% of the bounty though)



1) Placing a bounty on someone should have no negative effect on that character's standing.

2) Pointless as after collection it can be sent to any character.

3) That's up to CCP devs.

4) Don't see an issue with adding notes, although don't see the point of a 24 hour delay.

5) Last words, mechanism for adding insult to injury? Probably not a good idea.

6) Paying bounties off, just no.

7) This seems totally irrelevant to me.

8) No, there should be backlash if someone places a bounty or someone collects on that bounty.

9) Turning bounty hunting into mission running, isn't the thing to do.

10) Being told where someone is every 3 hours, no you should find out yourself, stop being lazy.

11) No comment

12) Nah

13) No, too artificial.


A bounty system based on missions won't work. It does nothing for the sandbox or RP.
Zigzigzigzigzigzigzigzig TireIrons
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#94 - 2014-08-24 08:50:46 UTC
Grog Aftermath wrote:
Zigzigzigzigzigzigzigzig wrote:
1) Placing a bounty on someone else will very very negatively impact your security standing (Only 1-2 bounties can be placed before your standing is close to criminal). Should you have a bad standing (number TBD. not sure if yellow or red is a good choice), you can't place bounties. This will inhibit people trolling often, or placing them for no reason.

2) A Bounty may ONLY be collected by a BOUNTY HUNTER, and only by the Bounty Hunter that has been assigned the target. Bounty Hunters MAY share contracts and funds should they wish (I.E. The target is too strong to take down solo)

3) The Bounty Hunter may collect a Bounty in any security space other than 1.0.The way this collection works is shown in the following formula.
Bounty Price = X
Value in ISK of items (including implants) Destroyed by the Bounty Hunter = Y
Bounty Collected = BC

4) When the original bounty is placed (24 hours delay on activation), the person who is placing the bounty may also add a description to the bounty (place of residence, known ships, reasons, and even last words. Refer to part 5). This will be given to the Bounty Hunter as a readable piece of mission items.

5) A player may place a bounty with a "LAST WORDS" feature. This feature is a bonus that automatically is sent to the now dead target via the Bounty Hunters eve mail system. It CAN be toggled by the bounty hunter. Whichever bounty placed the most money into this extra feature will have their text played.

6) A Bounty may be paid off for 25% more than the bounty that was placed, plus a percentage of total assets (2% maybe? 5%?)

7) A player can send email to the person who placed their bounties, but they will be sent to an anonymous email address and can be toggled off by the player who created the bounty. This will give people a chance to fix the wrongs they did should they decide to.

8) A Bounty Hunter can not receive a bounty from any target, or connected (owned by the target) accounts, or Corp mates of the target for 2 weeks. (This will keep Bounty Hunters from receiving unjustified backlash.)

9) The Mission from which you accept Bounty Targets will work like a normal mission. It has different rankings that you get by increasing standing. The lower the standing, the lower target and value of the bounties. This will have to be some form of formula which takes into account both the SP pilot AND the price of the bounty.

10) Every 3 hours, you will receive an eve mail with the system that your target is in. You MAY have up to 2 targets per level of ENFORCER skill. (Or Bounty Hunting. IDK lol). Since you will be looking for more than one bounty, you'll receive all of the bounty locations at once, along with the names of each target associated with the location. Should you collect a bounty, the locations of all the other targets are IMMEDIATELY transmitted via eve mail. This transition does not reset the normal 3 hour cycle. Thus, the better you are, the quicker you collect bounties.

11) When the contract is picked up from the appropriate level BOUNTY MISSION, the Bounty Hunter is given EACH piece of info from every bounty that is currently on the target.

12) There will be a completely separate, yet extremely similar NULL SEC BOUNTY HUNTER skill. These bounties CAN be placed by criminals, and when these are placed, the bounty is completed in portions. Each bounty requires that amount of ship/ modules/ implants/ other be destroyed in market value. A Bounty Hunter can drop this bounty at any point, and can also complete it piece by piece. (target has a 1bil bounty. loses a 10 million dollar ship. bounty hunter receives 20 million isk and the bounty is considered completed for quest purposes). However, the bounty does not go away until all the bounty is depleted. These bounties can ONLY be placed on criminals. They can ALSO be placed BY criminals. This mission only receives intel on location every 4 hours.

13) There is a BOUNTY CAP. Any time a person reaches this number (undetermined at this point) they remain suspect. Anyone can kill this suspect, however, only bounty hunters can receive the bounty. (Bounty Hunters that do not have the contract only receive 25% of the bounty though)



1) Placing a bounty on someone should have no negative effect on that character's standing.

2) Pointless as after collection it can be sent to any character.

3) That's up to CCP devs.

4) Don't see an issue with adding notes, although don't see the point of a 24 hour delay.

5) Last words, mechanism for adding insult to injury? Probably not a good idea.

6) Paying bounties off, just no.

7) This seems totally irrelevant to me.

8) No, there should be backlash if someone places a bounty or someone collects on that bounty.

9) Turning bounty hunting into mission running, isn't the thing to do.

10) Being told where someone is every 3 hours, no you should find out yourself, stop being lazy.

11) No comment

12) Nah

13) No, too artificial.


A bounty system based on missions won't work. It does nothing for the sandbox or RP.


read the posts since then? lol.
Grog Aftermath
Doomheim
#95 - 2014-08-24 09:01:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Grog Aftermath
Zigzigzigzigzigzigzigzig TireIrons wrote:

]

read the posts since then? lol.




I've looked through the rest of your responses to other peoples comments.

The way you respond to most, doesn't make for good reading.
Marc Durant
#96 - 2014-08-24 09:49:17 UTC
In short; OP likes to talk a lot and make suggestions he doesn't really understand the implications of (just as he somehow assumes it will be easy to implement). His initial idea is terrible and would be a great troll if he hadn't put so much effort into it.

Yes, yes I am. Thanks for noticing.
Fr3akwave
Mercury Arms Inc.
Ghostbirds
#97 - 2014-08-24 10:28:02 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Zigzigzigzigzigzigzigzig TireIrons wrote:
because it can be EASILY abused right now,


How?

You've said this several times, but you've never actually said what or how, just kept repeating it like it's true.


I've been reading through this thread and am still wondering about this, since the thread still lacks any response to that - after 3 pages and the question being voiced several times now.

The current system is the way it is because the majority of the bounty hunting systems are rendered irrelevant by the ability to just claim your own bounty with an alt. The system described here is no different in this regard.

The system in place right now is kinda sub-optimal with respect to the bounty hunting profession, though on the other hand is the first iteration of the system that actually enables it. Before that, bounty hunting did not exist at all, because as soon as your bounty was big enough, you would claim it yourself. In the EVE I am playing right now, this kind of abuse does not work and the claim by OP that it actually does, still has not been supported by any comment at all, probably because even OP has seen that this is not the case.


My opinion on the proposed mechanic:
If you post an idea that is shown to be massively abusable 3 times in the first 2 pages and you need to keep reworking it over and over adding more complication and additional glitches and loopholes so that 6000 symbols are not enough, you should probably stop discussing, rethink your idea entirely and then post another thread about it (but this time in the correct forum section please), or start it as a "lets discuss options" thread in the first place.

For me, a bounty system that

  • is easily abusable by alts
  • is easily abusable via insurance fraud
  • requires "insurance blocking" as a fix (and effectively removes insurance entirely from eve, you know the players, the troll is strong with them)
  • requires penalties to prevent people from using it too much (and thereby throwing a spanner into the works of the entire business you are apparently trying to buff up...)
  • in general requires multiple extra "features" implemented just for closing the most obvious loopholes while they imply massive interference with other aspects of the game

is obviously unacceptable and very, very out of place and needs serious reworking right up from the bottom.
Martin Corwin
Doomheim
#98 - 2014-08-24 13:24:49 UTC
Martin Corwin
Doomheim
#99 - 2014-08-24 13:50:27 UTC
Azda Ja wrote:
Also, don't patronize me, I'm being serious when I ask you why focus on bounties before other things. I've only been back just shy of 2 months, but I can think of many things that warrant more focus than bounties. I'm asking you if fixing bounties NOW would benefit the game more than other projects.

We are discussing the bounty system in this thread, not if it should be a development focus now or rather later. Stop trying to derail this thread.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#100 - 2014-08-24 13:52:17 UTC
This is all extremely great, I see no possible way how this could be totally abused.

+1 from me

Evil RatKid