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CCP Response Regarding SOMER Blink Concerns

First post First post First post
Author
Hendrick Tallardar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#721 - 2014-08-22 04:15:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Hendrick Tallardar
ExplorerAlTNewb wrote:
Hendrick Tallardar wrote:
ExplorerAlTNewb wrote:
Hendrick Tallardar wrote:
Your example is also flawed because per TMC's internal policy, and by CCP's guidelines, you can't be compensated with in-game ISK for a non-EVE contribution to the site. .


So to get the record straight, TMC use to pay ISK to EVE Players for Non-EVE related contributions and was then contacted or made aware from CCP that this isnt allowed and corrected there policy.


Is this correct?


No. That was never said nor implied in anyway other than your own conjecture. TMC compensates a contributor who provides EVE IP related content (articles/streaming/videos) with ISK. That is what CCP deem acceptable and enforce it as such. Anything non-EVE related has no EVE based in-game reward or ISK compensation associated. So again, I'm not getting how it's hard for people to comprehend the differences but this thread has gone from a discussion on Somer's behavior to a thinly veiled "Grr Mittani/TMC/Goons" bitchfest so it's not all too surprising asinine conclusions are being drawn up from nothing.


Can you help me understand what is on this page then?

http://themittani.com/news/april-tmc-update-real-space-streamers-and-dota2

Snip from said page:
http://imgur.com/FbR3Uyb

This looks like its pay isk for non eve stuff ... what says you?


Then yes, that was what the payment method was. You'll note past tense verbs given that, if you check the date of the article, it was published half a year before Somer Blink 1.0. As stated as well, numerous times for you so you didn't miss out on it, CCP have told sites like TMC to adjust that method. Failure to do so results in punishment. If you have evidence they currently pay in-game ISK for non-EVE IP related content for the site, you'd best provide that to CCP's Security and Community Management teams. Again, not very difficult to understand.
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#722 - 2014-08-22 04:18:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
ExplorerAlTNewb wrote:
Can you help me understand what is on this page then?

http://themittani.com/news/april-tmc-update-real-space-streamers-and-dota2

Snip from said page:
http://imgur.com/FbR3Uyb

This looks like its pay isk for non eve stuff ... what says you?


That article is dated April 2013

CCP asked TMC to stop paying ISK for articles unrelated to EVE IP due to the fallout after Somergate I. TMC complied. What's the issue?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#723 - 2014-08-22 04:19:29 UTC
Derrick Miles wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Derrick Miles wrote:
...

I'll tell you what RMT is.

It's one of the least of the things wrong with this game. It's also, in the context of this particular thread, a classic false flag operation.

It'll be interesting to see where CCP takes this as more unfolds.

Mr Epeen Cool

I disagree, I think RMT can have a big impact on any MMO and I, at least, am glad CCP and their security team is on top of enforcement. It may seem inconsequential at first glance, internet pixels and all that, but the complex and vibrant market economy simulation that Eve is home to is one of the unique and awesome things that makes Eve stand out among it's competitors. It would be a true shame to see it wrecked by a bunch of greedy people who are too short-sighted to see that.


Running a promo that gives you a few dollars a day for a week or whatever is not going to break a game in which you have hundreds of characters being sold for cash, trillions of isk being sold for cash, titans being sold for cash, services being sold for cash, and on and on.

Somer contributed such a small amount to the destruction of the game with this latest promo that it's laughable people are getting so wound up about it.

Like I said. False flag.

Mr Epeen Cool
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#724 - 2014-08-22 04:22:49 UTC
you don't seem to know what a false flag is

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#725 - 2014-08-22 04:24:34 UTC
Andski wrote:
you don't seem to know what a false flag is


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag

Maybe CCP Falcon is Somerset Mahm Shocked

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Hendrick Tallardar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#726 - 2014-08-22 04:25:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Hendrick Tallardar
Derrick Miles wrote:
I must admit that does look like it's crossing the line. But I don't think you should be airing it out on the forums even still, contacting CCP security would be the way to go.


Read the date on the article, it's from April 2013. The SomerGate 1.0 took place in October 2013 which brought CCP addressing sites like TMC regarding those policies.

crimsonshank wrote:
You have too said it ,might want to stop posting and actually read what you are typing, go back a few pages you said in two posts the payment for their articles on TMC is unidentified, then on the same page TMC paid their writers in ISK. You flip flop more then a fish out of water. At least stick to one side or the other for Christs sake


Hi, please take the time to read the context of what was said. The comment where you claim I'm "flip flopping" on was the response to you saying:

"The image clearly shows text writing an article about anything including Astronomy you get paid for your articles and the one with the most views gets a 1bil isk bonus at the end of the month"

Which was replied to with

"No. The text shows you can get compensated for writing an Astronomy related article but the specific payment isn't outlined."

Which means, the image shared perviously doesn't say how a non-EVE article is compensated for with non-EVE payment, nor does it say it is compensated for with in-game ISK/EVE goods. TMC, to my knowledge, have not stated publicly how they compensate for non-EVE content, only with how they pay for EVE content on the site to the contributor. So, as routinely explained to you across numerous pages in this thread, TMC pays for EVE content (i.e. videos, articles, streaming EVE events) with EVE's in-game ISK. This, specifically, is permitted per CCP policy and guidelines to websites like TheMittani.com, EVENews24, etc. Any non-EVE content published on TMC, or any other site, cannot be compensated for with EVE ISK or any in-game items, again per CCP policy. I'm sorry reality isn't matching what your trying to claim is happening, but again if you really have any proof or evidence of prohibited activity take it up with CCP.

Oh also it's not flip flopping if it's the same message I've stated over and over again. So please try to read up on the right terms you want to use before posting. Thanks cupcake.
ExplorerAlTNewb
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#727 - 2014-08-22 04:29:55 UTC
Andski wrote:
ExplorerAlTNewb wrote:
Can you help me understand what is on this page then?

http://themittani.com/news/april-tmc-update-real-space-streamers-and-dota2

Snip from said page:
http://imgur.com/FbR3Uyb

This looks like its pay isk for non eve stuff ... what says you?


That article is dated April 2013

CCP asked TMC to stop paying ISK for articles unrelated to EVE IP due to the fallout after Somergate I. TMC complied. What's the issue?


Absolutely no issue, just wanted to be cleared up. All is well!
Derrick Miles
Death Rabbit Ky Oneida
#728 - 2014-08-22 04:30:59 UTC
Hendrick Tallardar wrote:
Derrick Miles wrote:
I must admit that does look like it's crossing the line. But I don't think you should be airing it out on the forums even still, contacting CCP security would be the way to go.

Read the date on the article, it's from April 2013. The SomerGate 1.0 took place in October 2013 which brought CCP addressing sites like TMC regarding those policies.

There is a more recent article also advertising for the same, as well as Hearthstone and Warframe writers in July of this year.
Hendrick Tallardar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#729 - 2014-08-22 04:34:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Hendrick Tallardar
Derrick Miles wrote:
Hendrick Tallardar wrote:
Derrick Miles wrote:
I must admit that does look like it's crossing the line. But I don't think you should be airing it out on the forums even still, contacting CCP security would be the way to go.

Read the date on the article, it's from April 2013. The SomerGate 1.0 took place in October 2013 which brought CCP addressing sites like TMC regarding those policies.

There is a more recent article also advertising for the same, as well as Hearthstone and Warframe writers in July of this year.


http://themittani.com/features/july-site-update-quiet-days

Please point to where they say they'll pay for non-EVE content with in-game ISK? CCP's policy doesn't prohibit them from hiring non-EVE writers, only that they cannot pay for non-EVE related content with in-game ISK. If you can prove they're paying for non-EVE content with ISK then report it to CCP. Simple as that really.
Slicr
#730 - 2014-08-22 04:40:00 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Slicr wrote:
As far as what you have written -- you can try and spin anyway you want the simply fact is:
Plex is bought with real money and is used in the game.
…and they're not RMT for the reasons described. No in-game items are being traded for real money.

Quote:
Therefore, anything associated with Plex is also associated with real money.
“Real money” is something vastly different than RMT. Anything associated with your local grocery store is also associated with real money. Anything associated with having a job is associated with real money. And yet, buying some poptarts on your way back from work is not RMT, even though it's associated with real money twice over.



Your first point - Plex for charity takes care of your no-in-game items statement

Your 2nd point - if you pay with a credit card for the PopTarts then yes it is RMT

I believe in being Pro-Active as Opposed to Reactive. Reactive tends to be more costly in time and money.

Xander Phoena
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#731 - 2014-08-22 04:42:33 UTC
Argus Sorn wrote:
Is there going to be some response regarding this incident and the praise/rewards/compliments/endorsements that SOMER received from several of the community devs...


I just wanted to say I thought this post was superb and I think I am going to take the time to think about, formulate a long form response and write it up on CZ. Good job fella.

www.crossingzebras.com

Derrick Miles
Death Rabbit Ky Oneida
#732 - 2014-08-22 04:52:12 UTC
Hendrick Tallardar wrote:
Derrick Miles wrote:
Hendrick Tallardar wrote:
Derrick Miles wrote:
I must admit that does look like it's crossing the line. But I don't think you should be airing it out on the forums even still, contacting CCP security would be the way to go.

Read the date on the article, it's from April 2013. The SomerGate 1.0 took place in October 2013 which brought CCP addressing sites like TMC regarding those policies.

There is a more recent article also advertising for the same, as well as Hearthstone and Warframe writers in July of this year.


http://themittani.com/features/july-site-update-quiet-days

Please point to where they say they'll pay for non-EVE content with in-game ISK? CCP's policy doesn't prohibit them from hiring non-EVE writers, only that they cannot pay for non-EVE related content with in-game ISK. If you can prove they're paying for non-EVE content with ISK then report it to CCP. Simple as that really.

You're absolutely correct, my mistake, I didn't see that there was no explicit mention of paying in isk in the latest post.

You have to admit though with the first post saying they're hiring for isk and the second saying they're still hiring, the implication is pretty strong and a misleading conclusion easily reached.
Hendrick Tallardar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#733 - 2014-08-22 04:56:50 UTC
Derrick Miles wrote:

You're absolutely correct, my mistake, I didn't see that there was no explicit mention of paying in isk in the latest post.

You have to admit though with the first post saying they're hiring for isk and the second saying they're still hiring, the implication is pretty strong and a misleading conclusion easily reached.


Yes, if you ignore the fact CCP and TMC have changed that policy from 18 months ago six months after the April 2013 post was made. Something that has been stated numerous times.
Lady Naween
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#734 - 2014-08-22 05:03:53 UTC
HarlyQ wrote:
I'm enjoying the crazies that are out here. This is the best thing to go to bed to. It's not everyday you go to sleep being accused of RMT even if vaguely. Please keep posting so I have something to read while waiting for my job interview. Thank you for the content.



good luck on the interview
Derrick Miles
Death Rabbit Ky Oneida
#735 - 2014-08-22 05:18:19 UTC
Hendrick Tallardar wrote:
Derrick Miles wrote:

You're absolutely correct, my mistake, I didn't see that there was no explicit mention of paying in isk in the latest post.

You have to admit though with the first post saying they're hiring for isk and the second saying they're still hiring, the implication is pretty strong and a misleading conclusion easily reached.
Yes, if you ignore the fact CCP and TMC have changed that policy from 18 months ago six months after the April 2013 post was made. Something that has been stated numerous times.

Forgive me for skimming this monster of a thread. Though I did search the site for a clarification and didn't find one.
Deka Ekato
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#736 - 2014-08-22 06:22:22 UTC
Argus Sorn wrote:
Is there going to be some response regarding this incident and the praise/rewards/compliments/endorsements that SOMER received from several of the community devs?

I am not looking to reopen old wounds but the community brought the nature and ethics of SOMER as an entity up over a year ago, and in response the community devs defended and praised them. Below are just a few examples:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3656860#post3656860
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3660642#post3660642
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3725799#post3725799
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3722431#post3722431


We were assured that they were basically trustworthy, reliable and on the up and up - yet it took a few of us no more than 15 minutes or so of examining their promotions to realize last year that they were RMT'ing.

I guess what I am saying is this - CCP should be investigating how this entity, which you clearly state has never had a business arrangement with CCP (despite being charged with handing out prizes to the community on CCP's behalf), managed to garner the trust and support of CCP devs. Either there was overt wrong doing (which I do not necessarily believe) or, more likely, this is more a matter of staff education regarding the complicated conflict of interest issues that can ensue when you engage in the sort of support that devs gave SOMER. In short: you guys were played.

So how do you plan to prevent this from happening in the future? I've never even really seen an acknowledgement from anyone at CCP that the sort of support and praise granted to SOMER was inappropriate - yet clearly this incident has proven that it was.

The lesson isn't that SOMER was 'bad'. Instead, the real lesson here is that despite what you think you know - the wrongdoing may always be there - and so outside of specific, legally and ethically vetted business agreements, CCP should not be endorsing a 3rd party, especially when in reality, that third party does not even exist outside of the game structure (they, aside form their RMT, are not a support or fan site - they were just an eve corporation, making isk).

Those posts were over one year ago, and CCP told SOMER to cease, and we would have thought that lessons were learned. But then this happens, and the mails from the VP show the problem persisted and indeed seems to be endemic at CCP. SOMER was NEVER a business entity - they were players of the game, with a history of violating the EULA, yet one of your VP's engaged them as if they are above the game, not a part of it. That is a serious problem.

I for one would like to see 'words' from Hilmar (as well as Lisa) on this - because I think it is is genuinely that concerning to me, as well as others, that the folks that are supposed to be unbiased adjudicators of the game decided to choose winners and losers and that even after being shown the folly of that one year ago, it continued. And once again realize that it was wrong whether or not SOMER turned out to be a bad egg.

I hope that CCP, whether they make public further statements about the business ethics being brought into question here or not, takes a hard look at the root cause of this problem and further educates all of their staff on maintaining appropriate boundaries between them and the players in the future. Although I do like to think we deserve and are worthy of, a statement or two on this issue.

Lastly, thank you for your prompt and appropriate response in this matter, you certainly deserve praise for that. I do not mean to take away from that in any way, but I do think that there are issues of business ethics and conflict of interest that have been raised that go beyond this one incident. I hope those issues receive the same prompt and proper response. Thank you.


Agree.
Argus, thank you for expressing what I couldn't put into words.
Zero West
The Royal Guard Of Salty Fish
Dracarys.
#737 - 2014-08-22 06:53:06 UTC
I can respect the swift reaction and decision by the CSM, the involved members of CCP and everyone here concerns as well. However, considering this matter started as a legal issue with CCP and SOMER's influential status in the EVE universe. This should have been handled in a more delicate and confidential manner and solely by CCP's legal department.............. Look, I enjoy this game to the fullest but the reckless way of handling potential legal matters needs to stop. I wanna be playing this game another 10-20 years from now not talking about how great it was before they had to write a settlement check larger than a winning lotto ticket. This thread within itself should have never been started. Someone in legal has to be sleeping behind the wheel. I'm not on here trying to debate, or start drama as we call it now . I just know my rights as a consumer and that their isn't a game better than EVE online and probably never will be. I'm just asking for CCP to be more careful with this that's all.
CCP Falcon
#738 - 2014-08-22 07:08:26 UTC
Okay,

This has drifted way off topic, and the discussion is being brought to a close.

Our position has been made clear on this, and if there are any further issues or questions, please file a support ticket under the community category.

Closing this thread now.

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3

ISD Tyrozan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#739 - 2014-08-24 00:58:32 UTC
A rumor mongering post has been removed.

Forum rule 31. Rumor mongering is prohibited.

ISD Tyrozan

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

@ISDTyrozan | @ISD_CCL