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Intergalactic Summit

 
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To arms!

Author
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#101 - 2014-08-21 15:14:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
It's a simple fact of Caldari law - any system currently occupied by the Caldari State is, legally speaking, the property of the Caldari State and all planetary resources and real estate within that system may be bid for in whole or piecemeal by Caldari corporations.

The important thing to remember is that the Megacorps are amoral first, moral if they can manage it and it won't cut unacceptably deep into their bottom line. They're not out for a cause or a creed, not even Meritocracy. They're out to turn a profit, and will do everything they legally can and, often, whatever the illegally can get away with without regard specifically for morality. This is true of ALL of them, without exception, no matter what glowing things the Scope might have to say about "nice guy" Ishukone.

The reason I have so much respect for the Mens Reppola administration of Ishukone is that he and his board have somehow managed to build a working business model out of doing the right thing for a price, hence the Intaki and Homeworld contracts and whatever the hell it was that happened with Insorum. I don't think anybody's got to the bottom of that one yet. There's a reason that the Napanii word for "charitable" is euphemistically used to mean "Idiotic".

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Bryen Verrisai
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2014-08-21 16:03:18 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

In any case, the Senate sold off Intaki to the highest bidder when they made it part of the CEWPA warzone, not the Caldari. The fact that your Homeworld is placed in such a ridiculous position is certainly NOT the fault of the Caldari State

You do your State a disservice by denying it recognition of the independence and agency it has fought so hard to achieve for itself.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#103 - 2014-08-21 16:13:42 UTC
Bryen Verrisai wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

In any case, the Senate sold off Intaki to the highest bidder when they made it part of the CEWPA warzone, not the Caldari. The fact that your Homeworld is placed in such a ridiculous position is certainly NOT the fault of the Caldari State

You do your State a disservice by denying it recognition of the independence and agency it has fought so hard to achieve for itself.


You do your Federation an equal disservice when you deny it control over which of it's systems it gave up to the CEWPA carousel.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#104 - 2014-08-21 16:31:36 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Bryen Verrisai wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

In any case, the Senate sold off Intaki to the highest bidder when they made it part of the CEWPA warzone, not the Caldari. The fact that your Homeworld is placed in such a ridiculous position is certainly NOT the fault of the Caldari State

You do your State a disservice by denying it recognition of the independence and agency it has fought so hard to achieve for itself.


You do your Federation an equal disservice when you deny it control over which of it's systems it gave up to the CEWPA carousel.

Everyone does everyone a disservice by...... You know what? **** it. Let the shooting commence...

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#105 - 2014-08-21 17:35:00 UTC
And this is the problem. Everyone says that things would improve if we just talked but, frankly, some of you have the emotional maturity of a blueberry scone. Perhaps Diana is right - one big war to settle it for once and all.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
#106 - 2014-08-21 18:07:33 UTC
Yeah. Big wars have tended to end grudges and lead to great stuff. I mean, just look at... oh...

Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.

Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#107 - 2014-08-21 18:27:11 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
And this is the problem. Everyone says that things would improve if we just talked but, frankly, some of you have the emotional maturity of a blueberry scone. Perhaps Diana is right - one big war to settle it for once and all.

Hey, scones are yummy. Also, I can get behind the whole "1 war to end them all" Idea. Just gather the fleets meet up somewhere and slug it out, last one standing gets to write the history books and a lot less civilians die on account of political foolishness.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Skye Nico
#108 - 2014-08-21 19:00:35 UTC
People are making the mistake of assuming those in charge are just as infantile as those involved in this particular discussion.
Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#109 - 2014-08-21 19:27:14 UTC
Jinari Otsito wrote:
Yeah. Big wars have tended to end grudges and lead to great stuff. I mean, just look at... oh...


In the case of the great patriotic war?
Unity, Integrity, Independence and Sovereignity.
This can, without doubt, equally be used outside the context of this thread to describe a certain rebellion.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.

Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#110 - 2014-08-21 19:34:02 UTC
Skye Nico wrote:
People are making the mistake of assuming those in charge are just as infantile as those involved in this particular discussion.

Bet they are, they're just not as public about it...... Except the Senate, they can get downright juvenile on the debate floor.....

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Skye Nico
#111 - 2014-08-21 19:48:31 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Skye Nico wrote:
People are making the mistake of assuming those in charge are just as infantile as those involved in this particular discussion.

Bet they are, they're just not as public about it...... Except the Senate, they can get downright juvenile on the debate floor.....


Don't confuse emotional publicity with the people behind it.
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
#112 - 2014-08-21 23:50:27 UTC
Desiderya wrote:
Jinari Otsito wrote:
Yeah. Big wars have tended to end grudges and lead to great stuff. I mean, just look at... oh...


In the case of the great patriotic war?
Unity, Integrity, Independence and Sovereignity.
This can, without doubt, equally be used outside the context of this thread to describe a certain rebellion.


Agreed. Where do we stand now, though? These just and necessary wars didn't really do much in the way of ending conflicts. "One big war to finish things" is just a ludicrous notion as there'll always be something new to wage war over after that. I'd rather we focused on peace efforts than gearing up for another big war when there's so little to be gained from paying such a price.

The big ones come along when they're needed. There's no need to hasten their coming.

Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.

Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#113 - 2014-08-22 01:13:05 UTC
True, these conflicts would've been over far sooner if no one would've had the courage to stand up.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.

Bryen Verrisai
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#114 - 2014-08-22 01:46:53 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Everyone says that things would improve if we just talked but, frankly, some of you have the emotional maturity of a blueberry scone.

This criticism brought to you by the man who praises the pain and suffering inflicted upon people defending themselves and others from genocidal invaders, and who advocated on behalf of said genocide in pursuit of making sure the right pieces of cloth are planted on a very specific body of dirt.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#115 - 2014-08-22 02:17:36 UTC
Bryen Verrisai wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Everyone says that things would improve if we just talked but, frankly, some of you have the emotional maturity of a blueberry scone.

This criticism brought to you by the man who praises the pain and suffering inflicted upon people defending themselves and others from genocidal invaders, and who advocated on behalf of said genocide in pursuit of making sure the right pieces of cloth are planted on a very specific body of dirt.


The difference between your people and mine, dear boy, is that when my people were told to fire from orbit on civilian targets, they said 'No.' Think about that for a little while. The automaton fascists who are apparently incapable of questioning orders said 'no' when the proud defenders of liberty were quite happy to reduce cities to rubble and target unarmed freighters packed full of refugees.

The problem with the Gallente is that they've always been much, much better at talking a good story than acting one out.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Bryen Verrisai
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#116 - 2014-08-22 03:20:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Bryen Verrisai
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

The difference between your people and mine, dear boy, is that when my people were told to fire from orbit on civilian targets, they said 'No.'

Maybe your translator is on the fritz, but "people" is plural. As I recall, only one person said "no". And your people are very fortunate for it. That does not change the fact that the Caldari people as a whole rejoiced at the threats of genocide that reclaimed their homeworld, and wholeheartedly condoned the continuation of that threat indefinitely. It's rather telling, to be honest: the Caldari condemn the massacre of civilians; the Caldari massacre civilians. The Caldari praise a man who wiped out millions by driving his ship into a city; the Caldari curse the name of a man who flew his ship into a station. The Caldari fight a war for near a century in retribution for having death rained down from above; the Caldari threaten the same (likely worse) against multiple planets. If you people weren't so loudly hypocritical, I'd praise your consistency in always doing unto others what they do unto you.

Slightly off-topic point of curiosity: is Caldari Prime home to any native breeds of geese and/or ganders?

You have said in the past that the reclamation of Caldari Prime, nothing more nothing less, was the only goal of the Caldari. You're wrong; which is a shame, because that would have been a very reasonable goal. The Caldari got a taste of conquest and they liked it. They wanted more, and Heth lead them on to believe they deserved it and they could take it. I'm sure I don't need to tell you that ambitions of claiming the whole of Luminaire were not exactly kept discreet.

Now if you'd like to talk about what some U-NATs did (and were punished for and condemned after their regime was toppled) and apply their crimes to the Federation as a whole, then I think a parallel conversation about how the State is responsible for the crimes of the Dragonaurs and the Provists is in order as well. Though I don't think that line of discussion is going to lead anywhere productive, or intellectually honest.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#117 - 2014-08-22 05:20:07 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:

Now, if you would start thinking logically yourself, you would realize that part "accountable to few people" signifies coverage of the statement, and, obviously, these "few people" aren't authorities in the State.

However, unlike outcasts as yourself, there are still many peoples who hold their citizenship papers and still serve the State and not their little egos. When you hold citizenship paper, it makes you accountable to the corporation that issued the said paper, and thus you will answer to laws of the parent corporation as a paper holder.


Actually, both my corporate citizenship and clearance documents are issued by Kaalakiota Corporation. I am only authorized as a citizen of the Caldari State when I issue specific requests for such recognition, usually only when I am required to enter a Kaalakiota corporate enclave whereupon it is reinstated for the duration of my time spent within such territory. In all other cases as a capsuleer operating under the legal jurisdiction of CONCORD and the DED my Kaalakiota Corporate Citizenship remains rescinded as per issued clearance documents by Kaalakiota. As a CONCORD-DED regulated capsuleer I would exist only in the Caldari State as what is in effect an individually incorporated limited liability corporation registered to the SCC.

As such:

1. I can only be charged with treason under the Kaalakiota corporate criminal codes at a time and place when I am reinstated as a Kaalakiota citizen on Kaalakiota territory.

2. In my operations as an SCC registered corporation under CONCORD-DED regulations I could hypothetically be brought before the Caldari Business Tribunal. I cannot however be charged with Treason as a corporation as it remains a criminal charge under Megacorporate criminal codes not the Company Law of the Caldari State.

Upon such elaboration, my earlier statement that accusations against a Caldari capsuleer of treason are diminished to the point of being laughable I believe still remains valid. Because a Caldari capsuleer granted their clearance documents is legally not an individual or corporate citizen liable to criminal prosecution as such. But only hypothetically as a company of which, "Treason" forms no part of CBT Law.

Even in the scenario in which a Caldari capsuleer may be legally charged with treason under a Megacorporate criminal code this would have to involve their reinstatement of corporate citizenship, while being on corporate territory and the charges brought forward by an authorized corporate officer.

Since no CONCORD-DED capsuleer on the IGS is empowered to act on the behalf of a Megacorporation as a member of a police-investigative or criminal prosecution section then yes, any accusations or allegations of Treason remain as I said, the province of personal opinion devoid of any real or actual authority.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate
#118 - 2014-08-22 07:56:50 UTC
I for one am happy to see that Ms. Kim is still alive and well. I was worried that I was no longer going to enjoy her post on here anymore.

Blasters for life

https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#119 - 2014-08-22 14:18:55 UTC
Bryen Verrisai wrote:

You have said in the past that the reclamation of Caldari Prime, nothing more nothing less, was the only goal of the Caldari. You're wrong; which is a shame, because that would have been a very reasonable goal. The Caldari got a taste of conquest and they liked it. They wanted more, and Heth lead them on to believe they deserved it and they could take it. I'm sure I don't need to tell you that ambitions of claiming the whole of Luminaire were not exactly kept discreet.


The reclamation of Caldari Prime is the only thing that kept the State united over our two centuries of existence. It's our rallying cry, our mythology and religion is bound around the physical characteristics of the planet.

Did some people yearn for a more expansionist State? Did Heth? Did he push for it? I can't say that none of that happened - but what didn't happen was a general push towards expansionism.

It's an unfortunate truth that Tibus Heth seems to have wanted to reshape the State in his own image - his own desires and fears. If you feel concerned as Caldari and Gallente head towards peace you must remember that where Tibus Heth's vision stretched farther than restoring the State, it was roundly rejected.

The Caldari do not seek your worlds. We don't want to enforce our ways upon you - except for our way of not interfering outside our borders. All we want is our Homeworld back. But we're not homogenous. There ARE people who dream of profiteering. Of conquest. There are people like that just within the IGS, in fact, as we both know - but they are NOT the State or representatitve of the norm within the State.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#120 - 2014-08-22 14:41:59 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
The reclamation of Caldari Prime is the only thing that kept the State united over our two centuries of existence.


I hope that's not entirely accurate. I like to think there's more holding us together than one planet, no matter how important that planet might be.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders