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Giving Noobs a Chance

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Wolf Kruol
Suicide Squad Gamma
#1 - 2014-08-21 18:08:39 UTC
CCP over the years I still see eve having problems with beginner player struggling to enjoy eve. As much as you do to make tutorials easier there Eve is too harsh for some. Gankers, scammer’s etc. ruin their spirits before they can truly enjoy EVE. May I suggest an idea that may help those trial period players get a feel for eve in a controlled environment.

Jove space, unused and vast. Why not use that space to start players in? For the practical aspect of eve they’re learning the ropes and the basics in jove controlled space. Jove would designate one system per empire to help recruit with their factions. Those tutorials via empire agents are in those specific stations in systems. Also limitations of trial accounts like training skill limitations and ship types are available in stations at set prices that only affect rookie space under the guise of Jove Empire. When player’s 14 day trial period is up or if they’re ready alts they can do the final test or just get approval to leave the jove space into normal empire space do to respected Nationality. There could be a max timer a player can stay in jove control space to 30 day max limit to give those who are having trouble grasping the mechanic. Players can buy basic civilian or tech 1 items that merit Trial accounts and no meta, faction items. If they want the better stuff they need to graduate Jove training and enter real eve universe.

For lore with the cold war Empires verse Concord, I’m going to assume that Jove Empire is pro Concord. Jove loses faith in empires abilities to manage their own candidate clones selections and training. They force the empires to send their candidates, training agents and any other needed materials to Jove Empire in respected national systems for training. Jove evaluate candidates and give the final test before Capsuleers are send back to empire space. If a new player fails jove requirements in there test they are restricted capsuleer status. Basically they’re trial account is close and they’re ether in frozen status or biomassed. For those who are using alts they have recommendations from the empire that these are legit candidates or vouched by their mains toons so they can leave jove space any time.

The whole concept is for beginner players to have a chance to enjoy eve and build their spirits to what awaits beyond the gate. True eve isn’t for everyone, but at least they can freely enjoy a safer environment without having to be grieved to death.

I hope that my idea leads to a better eve and giving starter players a chance to enjoy Eve. CCP eve is amazing game like no other. It’s rough and tough and nasty but it’s also thrilling, adrenaline pumping action with great drama with a touch of insanity all packed into one ball of awesomeness.

Wolf Kruol

“If you're very very stupid? How can you possibly realize you're very very stupid?

You have to be relatively intelligent to realize how stupid you really are!”
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2 - 2014-08-21 18:15:37 UTC
If anything, what they really need to teach new players is what can happen in the game. Ship/pod losses are real and they should be shown this before they leave any tutorial area. Just give them a new ship after the 1st one blew up so they realise their ship/pod will get blown up and that it's not the end of the world. A safer beginner zone is not a good idea, it gives the player the wrong though about how it will be alter.
Eldwinn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3 - 2014-08-21 18:19:31 UTC
I believe this topic has been brought up multiple times. All were referencing "instanced" approaches for NPE. I still will +1 this however I think this is a redundant thread.
Wolf Kruol
Suicide Squad Gamma
#4 - 2014-08-21 18:21:11 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
If anything, what they really need to teach new players is what can happen in the game. Ship/pod losses are real and they should be shown this before they leave any tutorial area. Just give them a new ship after the 1st one blew up so they realise their ship/pod will get blown up and that it's not the end of the world. A safer beginner zone is not a good idea, it gives the player the wrong though about how it will be alter.


They have tutorials that they loose ships already. And if they are ready they can leave anytime. Staying is for those who need more time to feel eve. Some require layed back feel of it before going into the meat grinder. Other players who are more ready can leave anytime to highsec. Some just want to abit of eve taste and don't want all the crazy. Its a choice. Ending tutorial via jove should show example of what to expect in empire space, in a controlled environment or they can just go and let eve sort them out.

“If you're very very stupid? How can you possibly realize you're very very stupid?

You have to be relatively intelligent to realize how stupid you really are!”
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#5 - 2014-08-21 18:30:17 UTC
Wolf Kruol wrote:
CCP over the years I still see eve having problems with beginner player struggling to enjoy eve. As much as you do to make tutorials easier there Eve is too harsh for some. Gankers, scammer’s etc. ruin their spirits before they can truly enjoy EVE. May I suggest an idea that may help those trial period players get a feel for eve in a controlled environment.

Jove space, ....

Read till here, expecting a redundant repost. Boy I was not disappointed.

IB4L.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#6 - 2014-08-21 18:31:54 UTC
And once the newbies leave this "protected area" they get scammed, ganked, AWOXed, and have their spirits crushed anyways.

"Protecting" newbies (even for a limited period of time) does not teach or prepare them for the harshness of the game mechanics. All it does is give newbies the [incorrect] impression that there are "safe-zones" and that the game is like other MMOs (with PvE and such).

What really needs to be done is replace the tutorials with something more simple that they cannot ignore (because no one ever reads a "wall-of-text" tutorial unless they are truly stumped).
Voice-overs would be the best way. Have them explain what the "right mentality" is in EVE**, and some basic tips on what to do. Then let them figure out the rest.



** (see: this is a Multi-Player sandbox. While you are free to do whatever you want to do, so is everyone else... even if their actions interfere with yours. Moreover, no one is guaranteed success in EVE. No NPC will protect you or your assets but yourself. You are in constant competition against everyone. There is no fairness here... only more clever. Etc.).

How did you Veterans start?
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#7 - 2014-08-21 18:32:02 UTC
edit: double post. Oops

How did you Veterans start?
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#8 - 2014-08-21 18:34:34 UTC
Wolf Kruol wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
If anything, what they really need to teach new players is what can happen in the game. Ship/pod losses are real and they should be shown this before they leave any tutorial area. Just give them a new ship after the 1st one blew up so they realise their ship/pod will get blown up and that it's not the end of the world. A safer beginner zone is not a good idea, it gives the player the wrong though about how it will be alter.


They have tutorials that they loose ships already. And if they are ready they can leave anytime. Staying is for those who need more time to feel eve. Some require layed back feel of it before going into the meat grinder. Other players who are more ready can leave anytime to highsec. Some just want to abit of eve taste and don't want all the crazy. Its a choice. Ending tutorial via jove should show example of what to expect in empire space, in a controlled environment or they can just go and let eve sort them out.



The longer you leave them in a protected space, the higher the chance they will think the rest of the universe is like that. You need to force-teach them and then explain clearly what happened, why it happened and make them expect it.
Wolf Kruol
Suicide Squad Gamma
#9 - 2014-08-21 18:38:18 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
And once the newbies leave this "protected area" they get scammed, ganked, AWOXed, and have their spirits crushed anyways.

"Protecting" newbies (even for a limited period of time) does not teach or prepare them for the harshness of the game mechanics. All it does is give newbies the [incorrect] impression that there are "safe-zones" and that the game is like other MMOs (with PvE and such).

What really needs to be done is replace the tutorials with something more simple that they cannot ignore (because no one ever reads a "wall-of-text" tutorial unless they are truly stumped).
Voice-overs would be the best way. Have them explain what the "right mentality" is in EVE**, and some basic tips on what to do. Then let them figure out the rest.



** (see: this is a Multi-Player sandbox. While you are free to do whatever you want to do, so is everyone else... even if their actions interfere with yours. Moreover, no one is guaranteed success in EVE. No NPC will protect you or your assets but yourself. You are in constant competition against everyone. There is no fairness here... only more clever. Etc.).


Maybe it will crush some.. but maybe less so if they've been warned and have had some time to prepare better. Sure there will be players who will just leave. But it might be enough to keep abit more players in game since they have had some time to absorb the ills that awaits before them. No tutorial will really prepare players properly to live in eve. Only other players will help with that aggressively or passively.

“If you're very very stupid? How can you possibly realize you're very very stupid?

You have to be relatively intelligent to realize how stupid you really are!”
Wolf Kruol
Suicide Squad Gamma
#10 - 2014-08-21 18:41:39 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Wolf Kruol wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
If anything, what they really need to teach new players is what can happen in the game. Ship/pod losses are real and they should be shown this before they leave any tutorial area. Just give them a new ship after the 1st one blew up so they realise their ship/pod will get blown up and that it's not the end of the world. A safer beginner zone is not a good idea, it gives the player the wrong though about how it will be alter.


They have tutorials that they loose ships already. And if they are ready they can leave anytime. Staying is for those who need more time to feel eve. Some require layed back feel of it before going into the meat grinder. Other players who are more ready can leave anytime to highsec. Some just want to abit of eve taste and don't want all the crazy. Its a choice. Ending tutorial via jove should show example of what to expect in empire space, in a controlled environment or they can just go and let eve sort them out.



The longer you leave them in a protected space, the higher the chance they will think the rest of the universe is like that. You need to force-teach them and then explain clearly what happened, why it happened and make them expect it.
They will through other payed players who have started new accounts on alts. Or through recruitment's. I'm sure others will try using simple ships to give them a chance for fairer fights than T2 ships. The eve communities will find ways to still teach these players how eve truly works. But within a controlled environment and with a chance that other players can win.

“If you're very very stupid? How can you possibly realize you're very very stupid?

You have to be relatively intelligent to realize how stupid you really are!”
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#11 - 2014-08-21 18:57:25 UTC
I still like the idea of the 'cold dark truth' tutorial followed by 'I accept' button press, as described at the bottom of this article.

Its not about EvE being hard per se', its about not expectation-levelling with new players up front on its non-consensual core, and them unexpectedly losing a faction-fit pimp mobile....

F

Would you like to know more?
Wolf Kruol
Suicide Squad Gamma
#12 - 2014-08-21 18:58:49 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
I still like the idea of the 'cold dark truth' tutorial followed by 'I accept' button press, as described at the bottom of this article.

Its not about EvE being hard per se', its about not expectation-levelling with new players up front on its non-consensual core, and them unexpectedly losing a faction-fit pimp mobile....

F

And they will still get that. There is no escaping that fate.

“If you're very very stupid? How can you possibly realize you're very very stupid?

You have to be relatively intelligent to realize how stupid you really are!”
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2014-08-21 19:02:26 UTC
Would be useless, imho.

Who are we fooling? The reality of EVE is:

- It's pretty hard / complex
- It's the only mainstream MMO where anybody can shoot you anytime, anywhere
- ...and where where scamming is an honourable profession
- PVE sucks pretty bad
- Graphics are pretty (though not top-notch), but you only see them if you aren't actually playing
- It's very time consuming, if you want to achieve anything
- It's sci-fi, so 90% of female gamers won't like it anyway

In short, it's not for everybody. Though many of us love it deeply.

Sorry but I'm convinced that anybody that quits EVE after a month or less simply... doesn't like it!

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#14 - 2014-08-21 19:06:15 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
And once the newbies leave this "protected area" they get scammed, ganked, AWOXed, and have their spirits crushed anyways.

"Protecting" newbies (even for a limited period of time) does not teach or prepare them for the harshness of the game mechanics. All it does is give newbies the [incorrect] impression that there are "safe-zones" and that the game is like other MMOs (with PvE and such).

What really needs to be done is replace the tutorials with something more simple that they cannot ignore (because no one ever reads a "wall-of-text" tutorial unless they are truly stumped).
Voice-overs would be the best way. Have them explain what the "right mentality" is in EVE**, and some basic tips on what to do. Then let them figure out the rest.



** (see: this is a Multi-Player sandbox. While you are free to do whatever you want to do, so is everyone else... even if their actions interfere with yours. Moreover, no one is guaranteed success in EVE. No NPC will protect you or your assets but yourself. You are in constant competition against everyone. There is no fairness here... only more clever. Etc.).



1.) as mentioned at Fanfest, every time they have to revamp the tutorials or other related things, then they have to redo the voice overs....and that means paying actors or having a Dev devoted to other things do the job, then they need to program it in game for every single mission.

2.) Granted this is a multi-player game but a vast majority of newer players that i have come across dont seem to have trouble so much with interacting with other players as much as they do with mechanics itself. How things work for example. or why they work the way they do. Having a so called rookie area i feel could have better dedicated channels maybe for a new player to get some kind of news of various things, like the larger politico groups.

Letting newbies figure things out themselves is not always the best way....in fact in EvE its down right criminal to do so. There are all sorts of tools to teach them with, but they need basic understanding of mechanics first to make those tools useable. I know i trained a group of newbie players, the concepts of mining and industry going hand in hand was a difficult one for them to get over, then i also threw in the need for overview setups, not afk playing, d-scan useage, what standings to corps can benefit as for individual and corp or even alliance stuff, then there was fittings, skill plans, do's and dont's and using missions as a tool to help learn how to tank and manage cap useage amongst a few other basic player skills.

I say a rookie area with set types of rookie style missions should be setup maybe, that way maybe CCP could literally make up missions like many have mentioned in the past. ie: overview setup, using d-scan, maybe even a mission that doesnt really end till they do complete it and keep replacing their ship till they learn how to fly that ship. maybe even mining missions where a gank does happen or soemthing....or make a mission type where x veld needs to be mined and another rookie has a mission to kill mining ship. Besides....having to mine in a frigate like some of us vets had to do (i know the venture exsists) might give those really into mining better appreciation of barges and etc, let alone how to tank them or pay attention to local.

would really take the edge of us vets who try to train newbies but have to reattach the training wheels on them to do so.
Wolf Kruol
Suicide Squad Gamma
#15 - 2014-08-21 19:08:22 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Would be useless, imho.

Who are we fooling? The reality of EVE is:

- It's pretty hard / complex
- It's the only mainstream MMO where anybody can shoot you anytime, anywhere
- ...and where where scamming is an honourable profession
- PVE sucks pretty bad
- Graphics are pretty (though not top-notch), but you only see them if you aren't actually playing
- It's very time consuming, if you want to achieve anything
- It's sci-fi, so 90% of female gamers won't like it anyway

In short, it's not for everybody. Though many of us love it deeply.

Sorry but I'm convinced that anybody that quits EVE after a month or less simply... doesn't like it!
No such thing as the perfect mmo.. Doesn't exist and will never.. If your expectation of this game eve isn't up to par then move on. Your right and I've said it before Eve isn't for everybody. If you dislike eve so much why are you here?

“If you're very very stupid? How can you possibly realize you're very very stupid?

You have to be relatively intelligent to realize how stupid you really are!”
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#16 - 2014-08-21 19:13:11 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Its not about EvE being hard per se', its about not expectation-levelling with new players up front on its non-consensual core, and them unexpectedly losing a faction-fit pimp mobile....

Exactly this.

I do not think it is the mechanics themselves that drive away new players. With some patience, you can learn them over time (as I did).

Most of the complaints I have seen about EVE have more to do with how players get screwed in ways they did not expect (as the poster above the pointed out).

And you can't really "teach" this. It is an abstraction. It is like explaining to a kid what love and heartbreak are and hoping for the best... when in reality he/she will have no idea what to expect until after he/she has experienced it (for better or worse).

Or... you tell a kid not to stick a knife into a wall socket because it is dangerous. The kid knows it is dangerous because you said so... but they cannot actually conceive how dangerous it is (because they have never experienced it). Better to let them stick a knife into a low voltage socket so they understand WHY it is bad (after which you redraw their eyebrows and help them learn to laugh it off).


To keep them in the game you have to instill a more "process" type mentality. Things happen, you adapt, then more stuff happens, so you adapt again... and that the selling point behind the game is that this never ends.

How did you Veterans start?
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#17 - 2014-08-21 19:14:52 UTC
Wolf Kruol wrote:
No such thing as the perfect mmo.. Doesn't exist and will never.. If your expectation of this game eve isn't up to par then move on. Your right and I've said it before Eve isn't for everybody. If you dislike eve so much why are you here?

Really made me chuckle coming from a guy who reposts a redundant thread, ignoring anyone who states so and manages to drag out a silly thread over 130 posts blatantly defending he is the only one seeing the potential in a highsec purge day.
Wolf Kruol
Suicide Squad Gamma
#18 - 2014-08-21 19:21:38 UTC
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
Wolf Kruol wrote:
No such thing as the perfect mmo.. Doesn't exist and will never.. If your expectation of this game eve isn't up to par then move on. Your right and I've said it before Eve isn't for everybody. If you dislike eve so much why are you here?

Really made me chuckle coming from a guy who reposts a redundant thread, ignoring anyone who states so and manages to drag out a silly thread over 130 posts blatantly defending he is the only one seeing the potential in a highsec purge day.
I'm rarely on the forums. I don't live on reading every post that ever existed. I'm sure its been said before. But needs from time to time to be said again. Even if I'm just banging my head against the wall.

I like the purge day event. I still think one day no concord is great. Others don't like it. They're afraid. I accept that. CCP says no way fine by me. Still would be great to have a day anything goes. But if your trying to combine my purge idea and jove rooke space that different becuase jove space would be immune to the purge day idea... But if you have issue with my purge day idea pls post there. If you have a problem with me feel free to email me your concerns My exotic chick secretary will file your complaints.


:)

“If you're very very stupid? How can you possibly realize you're very very stupid?

You have to be relatively intelligent to realize how stupid you really are!”
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#19 - 2014-08-21 19:24:43 UTC
Wolf Kruol wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Would be useless, imho.

Who are we fooling? The reality of EVE is:

- It's pretty hard / complex
- It's the only mainstream MMO where anybody can shoot you anytime, anywhere
- ...and where where scamming is an honourable profession
- PVE sucks pretty bad
- Graphics are pretty (though not top-notch), but you only see them if you aren't actually playing
- It's very time consuming, if you want to achieve anything
- It's sci-fi, so 90% of female gamers won't like it anyway

In short, it's not for everybody. Though many of us love it deeply.

Sorry but I'm convinced that anybody that quits EVE after a month or less simply... doesn't like it!
No such thing as the perfect mmo.. Doesn't exist and will never.. If your expectation of this game eve isn't up to par then move on. Your right and I've said it before Eve isn't for everybody. If you dislike eve so much why are you here?

He never said those were dislikes, those are simply core elements that set eve apart from literally every other current successful mmo.
Better question would be ,
why do you think those are negatives hmmm?

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2014-08-21 19:24:43 UTC
Wolf Kruol wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Though many of us love it deeply.
If you dislike eve so much why are you here?
In English, us includes me.

I love EVE, I'm obsessed with EVE, I'd give my left ball for... err no maybe not my left ball.

Doesn't mean I'm a fanboy that doesn't notice the many good reasons that many people may have to simply not like the game. Whether they start in Gallente or Jove space.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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