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Double Wrapped Contract Discussion. (Serious Discussion.)
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TheMeanPerson
Loot Disposal United
#21 - 2014-08-20 22:01:00 UTC
Masao Kurata wrote:
What absolutely should be fixed is the Orca's ship maintenance bay being a safe way to transport any ships, modules or drones.

EDIT: anything in the charge category too.


I do too agree that orcas need to be fixed in the terms of the ships in the ship hanger being undroppable. (always blow up but we will save that for my next PRO-GANKING thread).
Katerin Archer
Total.
#22 - 2014-08-20 22:07:53 UTC
I think it should be fixed in the way of making multiple-wrapping a feature: say, each additional wrap reduces the chance of your stuff to get scanned by a certain %, or require an additional scanning pass (would be still too op, but you got the idea).
That way it will be neither an exploit, nor a straightforward buff to gank scouting, but a new meta.
Be4st
The Abusement Park
#23 - 2014-08-20 22:08:08 UTC
TMP tears, best tears
TheMeanPerson
Loot Disposal United
#24 - 2014-08-20 22:10:11 UTC
Katerin Archer wrote:
I think it should be fixed in the way of making multiple-wrapping a feature: say, each additional wrap reduces the chance of your stuff to get scanned by a certain %, or require an additional scanning pass (would be still too op, but you got the idea).
That way it will be neither an exploit, nor a straightforward buff to gank scouting, but a new meta.


I don't see how this would change the fact its creating an exploitable mechanic in which cargo can be hidden in a ship not ment to have invisible cargo holds.

I'd be more interested in them bringing in a module, or another skill into the game to reduce cargo scan efficiency, lets say up to 50%, making scans only show half the cargo per scan.
Greg Valanti
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2014-08-20 22:12:33 UTC
TheMeanPerson wrote:
Katerin Archer wrote:
I think it should be fixed in the way of making multiple-wrapping a feature: say, each additional wrap reduces the chance of your stuff to get scanned by a certain %, or require an additional scanning pass (would be still too op, but you got the idea).
That way it will be neither an exploit, nor a straightforward buff to gank scouting, but a new meta.


I don't see how this would change the fact its creating an exploitable mechanic in which cargo can be hidden in a ship not ment to have invisible cargo holds.

I'd be more interested in them bringing in a module, or another skill into the game to reduce cargo scan efficiency, lets say up to 50%, making scans only show half the cargo per scan.


In this case the cycle time needs to be changed so that it can only cycle 1-2 times before a freighter can reach warp.
TheMeanPerson
Loot Disposal United
#26 - 2014-08-20 22:14:39 UTC  |  Edited by: TheMeanPerson
Greg Valanti wrote:
TheMeanPerson wrote:
Katerin Archer wrote:
I think it should be fixed in the way of making multiple-wrapping a feature: say, each additional wrap reduces the chance of your stuff to get scanned by a certain %, or require an additional scanning pass (would be still too op, but you got the idea).
That way it will be neither an exploit, nor a straightforward buff to gank scouting, but a new meta.


I don't see how this would change the fact its creating an exploitable mechanic in which cargo can be hidden in a ship not ment to have invisible cargo holds.

I'd be more interested in them bringing in a module, or another skill into the game to reduce cargo scan efficiency, lets say up to 50%, making scans only show half the cargo per scan.


In this case the cycle time needs to be changed so that it can only cycle 1-2 times before a freighter can reach warp.


The idea is to prevent freighters from being blockade runners, 1-2 scans would be plenty, as we would simply just use more people to scan. The idea here guys isn't in need of defense, ganking is a very real mechanic in eve, furthermore favoritism is favoritism, saying one broken mechanics an exploit and one isn't is not the way to go about running a game.

FREIGHTERS AREN'T MEANT TO HAVE INVISIBLE CARGO HOLDS. Practice safe methods of moving cargo, have a scout, have logistics in line, have friends looking for gankers, the bottom line is don't do something stupid that will get you ganked. Invisible cargos wont save you if someone is randomly killing freighters anyway!
Natako Pirkibo
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#27 - 2014-08-20 22:15:38 UTC
Hello, mr. Hi-Sex 'Nado.

I agree that this thing is worth consideration, but...

Suicide ganker tears are priceless!
TheMeanPerson
Loot Disposal United
#28 - 2014-08-20 22:16:39 UTC
Natako Pirkibo wrote:
Hello, mr. Hi-Sex 'Nado.

I agree that this thing is worth consideration, but...

Suicide ganker tears are priceless!


[Sad

I value your input.
Paranoid Loyd
#29 - 2014-08-20 22:21:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
As a suicide ganker, I must say you tears are hilarious.

Also, T2 blaster Talos to kill an untanked Sigil?

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
TheMeanPerson
Loot Disposal United
#30 - 2014-08-20 22:27:11 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
As a suicide ganker, I must say you tears are hilarious.

Also, T2 blaster Talos to kill an untanked Sigil?

He had a plex, and its what I was in. \o/ whatsagankeratodoa.
TheMeanPerson
Loot Disposal United
#31 - 2014-08-20 22:27:39 UTC  |  Edited by: TheMeanPerson
I might also add for anyone with a rebuttle on whether it should or shouldn't be allowed, keep in mind it makes kills worth 0 isk on the kill, in addition to showing up on the killboard as a 0 isk cargo kill. Its a way for people to avoid getting stupid loss mails when carrying stupid things...

THIS ALONE IS ANOTHER REASON ITS AN EXPLOIT, not counting hiding things from cargo scans.
Paranoid Loyd
#32 - 2014-08-20 22:29:03 UTC
Use a 15mil isk cruiser instead of a 100mil isk BC

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#33 - 2014-08-20 22:30:51 UTC
Hmm, I wasn't thinking about this in terms of freighters. Certainly with freighters double wrapping is OP, freighter ganks require committing too many pilots and resources to do on the basis of a double wrap for most groups.
TheMeanPerson
Loot Disposal United
#34 - 2014-08-20 22:31:12 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Use a 15mil isk cruiser instead of a 100mil isk BC


Wasn't set up for killing haulers, he just happened to appear to me at the wrong time, so I used what I had. In addition stop getting off topic, this is about double wrapped couriers not my killboard.
Paranoid Loyd
#35 - 2014-08-20 22:34:13 UTC
Do you use Red Frog?

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Seranthor Dailaigh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2014-08-20 22:49:02 UTC
TheMeanPerson wrote:

This is where the exploit comes into play, it basically breaks the cargo scan mechanic, allowing people to transport items with the security of people not being able to know what is inside of the cargo. This essentially turns any active ship in the game into a blockade runner, it can be done on any ship in the game, allowing freighters to move around cargo without the disadvantages of being able to be cargo scanned by would be pirates, or war targets, or whomever has interest in knowing what they are carrying, as is their right through the cargo scan mechanic.



No I dont believe its an exploit. And my solution is rather simple... It is my opinion that if you want to know whats in the package bad enough then attack them and take the package.
Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#37 - 2014-08-20 22:51:14 UTC
Is double-wrapping an exploit? Kinda-ish. I strongly believe CCP is letting it ride because of what other people have already mentioned: There is currently no other way to counter cargo scanners other than a very specific type of ship, and that is an abnormality. However, cargo scanning and any counters to it are so low on CCP's list of things that need to be balanced that leaving double-wrapping in the game in CCP's way of throwing a bone to the dogs so they don't make too much noise, that way they can focus on more important things. The haulers and high sec gankers alike can make a lot of noise as you're currently in the process of demonstrating.

So the Kinda-ish comes from the fact that CCP knows it's there, knows it's happening, but hasn't named it an official exploit. Until then, any arguments about where it is or not is noise. Time is better spent discussing on how the entire system can be improved.

Oh, and killmails don't matter. The isk loss matters. How much you profited from the kill matters. Bragging rights don't matter. We couldn't care less about any valid point you bring up in the discussion if it also involves improving the potency of your E-peen enlargement pills.

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.
TheMeanPerson
Loot Disposal United
#38 - 2014-08-20 22:53:33 UTC
Seranthor Dailaigh wrote:
TheMeanPerson wrote:

This is where the exploit comes into play, it basically breaks the cargo scan mechanic, allowing people to transport items with the security of people not being able to know what is inside of the cargo. This essentially turns any active ship in the game into a blockade runner, it can be done on any ship in the game, allowing freighters to move around cargo without the disadvantages of being able to be cargo scanned by would be pirates, or war targets, or whomever has interest in knowing what they are carrying, as is their right through the cargo scan mechanic.



No I dont believe its an exploit. And my solution is rather simple... It is my opinion that if you want to know whats in the package bad enough then attack them and take the package.



Ok, even if we did kill them randomly to get the drop, their kill still reads 0 isk, reguardless of whether we knew or not if it had something the kill's value is then negated in the same way the scan is. Its an exploit.
TheMeanPerson
Loot Disposal United
#39 - 2014-08-20 22:55:33 UTC
Bohneik Itohn wrote:
Is double-wrapping an exploit? Kinda-ish. I strongly believe CCP is letting it ride because of what other people have already mentioned: There is currently no other way to counter cargo scanners other than a very specific type of ship, and that is an abnormality. However, cargo scanning and any counters to it are so low on CCP's list of things that need to be balanced that leaving double-wrapping in the game in CCP's way of throwing a bone to the dogs so they don't make too much noise, that way they can focus on more important things. The haulers and high sec gankers alike can make a lot of noise as you're currently in the process of demonstrating.

So the Kinda-ish comes from the fact that CCP knows it's there, knows it's happening, but hasn't named it an official exploit. Until then, any arguments about where it is or not is noise. Time is better spent discussing on how the entire system can be improved.

Oh, and killmails don't matter. The isk loss matters. How much you profited from the kill matters. Bragging rights don't matter. We couldn't care less about any valid point you bring up in the discussion if it also involves improving the potency of your E-peen enlargement pills.


By saying killmails dont matter your basically throwing the entire point of eve out of the window, for any pvper of any type. The bottom line is it breaks killmails, thats an exploit. In addition hiding cargo in anything but a blockade runner is not intended, which is why it should be an exploit in that sense as well. IF ITS NOT INTENDED and ITS USED FOR UNINTENDED BENEFIT, its an exploit.
Annette Nolen
Perkone
Caldari State
#40 - 2014-08-20 23:11:24 UTC
The oddball issues around double-wrapped couriers and containers in couriers absolutely needs to be fixed. Not for any of the reasons mentioned by the OP, but beggars can't be choosers. If getting it deemed an exploit is what it takes to have dev resources allocated to fixing it, then I am 100% on board with this!

:)