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Community Concerns Regarding SOMERblink

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Cryo Kool
Tax Holiday
#941 - 2014-08-20 11:40:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Cryo Kool
111010110 wrote:

CCP got gamed, by someone with the clear and long established intent to game those who make games.


In a nutshell this is exactly what happened. Finding enough evidence to get a conviction for it will be next to impossible though.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#942 - 2014-08-20 11:44:06 UTC
Derrick Miles wrote:
While RMT is bad, I'm not sure it rates on the scale of wife-beating and stealing pensions.


It's not as bad as those things, but donating any amount of PLEX to PLEX for GOOD doesn't put you above the rules. As Stannis of the House Baratheon the First of His Name, the One True King of the Andals, the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm says, a good act does not wash out the bad, nor the bad the good.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
111010110
The Darwin Initiative
#943 - 2014-08-20 11:46:14 UTC
Cryo Kool wrote:
111010110 wrote:

CCP got gamed, by someone with the clear and long established intent to game those who make games.


In a nutshell this is exactly what happened. Finding enough evidence to get a conviction for it will be next to impossible though.


Hardly. Besides, there is such a thing as intent. In that regard Somer has left quite a trail. Markee however is a different beast alltogether.

Let's be honest though, when CCP declared war on RMT, there were plenty things that were grey during those days. Turns out it never pays to enable those who make a living out of gaming you for legitimisation. It's a harsh lesson for CCP.


Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#944 - 2014-08-20 11:46:50 UTC
Rob Kashuken wrote:
Question to CCP Falcon:

Given CCP's usual punitive actions when RMT accounts and their clients are discovered, will the clients of Somer that partook of this offer also face the usual actions for being a party to RMT transactions?



A clear distinction should be made between intentionally participating in RMT buying, and unknowingly participating in RMT buying.

Lenience should be shown in the latter case.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Belinda HwaFang
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#945 - 2014-08-20 11:47:41 UTC
Beta Maoye wrote:
I haven't used Somer Blink. The first time I heard of them was their donating 4,000 PLEX to help typhoon victims last year. I think they are not bad guys. Perhaps the reason they get hammered is that they are too successful in their business.


I applaud Somer for being charitable with their considerable space monies.

However they got hammered because although they do a lot to generate revenue and content for CCP they are repeatedly crossing the line when it comes to RMT.

And to all of you saying: well why shouldn't he make money from it?

A: He can, but not from the ISK he has gained. ISK conversion to USD is a no-no as spelled out already many times in this thread.

And why do we care?

A: Because the rest of us can not even begin to do what he is doing. Consider how alliances already have affiliate links for buying PLEX so that when a member buys PLEX with that link they generate revenue for their alliance. The reason Mittani decided, perhaps, to make such a song and dance about this story so early is because it affects his alliance. But it affects other alliances too and I support him for speaking up along with the rest of us. Why would an alliance member buy PLEX from anyone other than SomerDragon if they would get less ISK for their PLEX by doing so? Most wouldn't, because Somer is making a "loss" (in ISK) on the PLEX sales in order to make a gain in USD. If other alliances, players, or game groups tried to follow suit (and some did when we had version one of this debacle in 2013) CCP was very very quick to shut them down immediately.

TLDR: If CCP let SomerDragon have their way, then we have a reboot of the T20 Scandal incoming (where an EVE employee used game mechanics to help out a certain group of players).

no RMT means no RMT, no matter how intricate or obfuscated you make the scheme. And if RMT is OKfor Somer, it needs to be OK for the rest of us.

--
Fang
Enaris Kerle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#946 - 2014-08-20 11:49:01 UTC
Cryo Kool wrote:
Finding enough evidence to get a conviction for it will be next to impossible though.

This isn't a criminal trial. You don't have to prove things beyond a reasonable doubt here.

Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm.
KIllerJon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#947 - 2014-08-20 11:50:26 UTC  |  Edited by: KIllerJon
Andski wrote:
Derrick Miles wrote:
While RMT is bad, I'm not sure it rates on the scale of wife-beating and stealing pensions.


It's not as bad as those things, but donating any amount of PLEX to PLEX for GOOD doesn't put you above the rules. As Stannis of the House Baratheon the First of His Name, the One True King of the Andals, the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm says, a good act does not wash out the bad, nor the bad the good.


You missed Azor Ahai reborn
Cryo Kool
Tax Holiday
#948 - 2014-08-20 11:50:40 UTC
111010110 wrote:
Cryo Kool wrote:
111010110 wrote:

CCP got gamed, by someone with the clear and long established intent to game those who make games.


In a nutshell this is exactly what happened. Finding enough evidence to get a conviction for it will be next to impossible though.


Hardly. Besides, there is such a thing as intent. In that regard Somer has left quite a trail. Markee however is a different beast alltogether.

Let's be honest though, when CCP declared war on RMT, there were plenty things that were grey during those days. Turns out it never pays to enable those who make a living out of gaming you for legitimisation. It's a harsh lesson for CCP.



Indeed. My initial questions after reading the proposal was, what are they going to use this potentially unlimited supply of plex for and why are they willing to pay an unspecified amount over market to ensure they receive them.
111010110
The Darwin Initiative
#949 - 2014-08-20 11:53:43 UTC
Belinda HwaFang wrote:
Beta Maoye wrote:
I haven't used Somer Blink. The first time I heard of them was their donating 4,000 PLEX to help typhoon victims last year. I think they are not bad guys. Perhaps the reason they get hammered is that they are too successful in their business.


I applaud Somer for being charitable with their considerable space monies.

However they got hammered because although they do a lot to generate revenue and content for CCP they are repeatedly crossing the line when it comes to RMT.

And to all of you saying: well why shouldn't he make money from it?

A: He can, but not from the ISK he has gained. ISK conversion to USD is a no-no as spelled out already many times in this thread.

And why do we care?

A: Because the rest of us can not even begin to do what he is doing. Consider how alliances already have affiliate links for buying PLEX so that when a member buys PLEX with that link they generate revenue for their alliance. The reason Mittani decided, perhaps, to make such a song and dance about this story so early is because it affects his alliance. But it affects other alliances too and I support him for speaking up along with the rest of us. Why would an alliance member buy PLEX from anyone other than SomerDragon if they would get less ISK for their PLEX by doing so? Most wouldn't, because Somer is making a "loss" (in ISK) on the PLEX sales in order to make a gain in USD. If other alliances, players, or game groups tried to follow suit (and some did when we had version one of this debacle in 2013) CCP was very very quick to shut them down immediately.

TLDR: If CCP let SomerDragon have their way, then we have a reboot of the T20 Scandal incoming (where an EVE employee used game mechanics to help out a certain group of players).

no RMT means no RMT, no matter how intricate or obfuscated you make the scheme. And if RMT is OKfor Somer, it needs to be OK for the rest of us.

--
Fang



Point is, all that entertainment and grand fun was nothing but a required mechanism for Markee to get that stamp of "legit" and take the next step (after the Margin Wars with other resellers), dominate his EVE market by means of legit + preferred supplier by choice. That's why Markee paired up with Somer. If Somer is even real (beyond some minion at 8$ an hour). Wouldn't be a first time that Markee puts some fake ID/team together like with that WoW-bot affair.

Meanwhile, Somer takes the hit, distracting nicely from both scope and intent for someone else's business plan ... I realise it's seriously sour for CCP no matter how you look at it, but this is what happens when you let such a business focus get a single foot in the door. It's not personal for them, it's business, it's predictable - but CCP missed it. Because awesome was done.
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#950 - 2014-08-20 11:54:35 UTC
There is little doubt in my mind that the reimbursement process will be used to launder ISK and assets from threatened accounts to save characters. I do no envy those GMs tasked with unravelling this clew of transactions.

Sovereignty and Population

New Mining Mechanics
Sion Kumitomo
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#951 - 2014-08-20 11:55:00 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
I'm meeting again today within CCP, and will be in touch with the CSM again once we have further developments.

Thanks for the patience guys Smile



Oh god, more meetings... Blink


At this rate, 'meeting' is going to turn into my new trigger word.

On twitter @siggonK
Cryo Kool
Tax Holiday
#952 - 2014-08-20 11:55:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Cryo Kool
Enaris Kerle wrote:
Cryo Kool wrote:
Finding enough evidence to get a conviction for it will be next to impossible though.

This isn't a criminal trial. You don't have to prove things beyond a reasonable doubt here.

There needs to be some minimum evidence standard or players will have the impression there is no due process involved in permanently banning their account. All the evidence that relates to this being RMT or not is not accessible to CCP. If SOMER is receiving money from the GTC seller then it is RMT; CCP can't know that unless they have the financial records.
Artemis Bowden
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#953 - 2014-08-20 11:58:46 UTC
How long before we find out the logs show nothing? Roll

I joke but someone had to say it :P

I think CCP Falcon is amazing and done a fantastic job for the community on this, hope the rest of CCP recognises that work and remembers this in future!

Blink will probably be missed but all good things come to an end at some point - just a shame if it does end on this its a sad legacy to leave.
Loki O'Grady
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#954 - 2014-08-20 12:00:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Loki O'Grady
Cryo Kool wrote:

Indeed. My initial questions after reading the proposal was, what are they going to use this potentially unlimited supply of plex for and why are they willing to pay an unspecified amount over market to ensure they receive them.


The way plex prices are going up and up, all he'd need to do is sit on them for a few weeks before selling them for more than he paid.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#955 - 2014-08-20 12:01:45 UTC
Arkady Romanov wrote:
Every player who took a chance on EVE because of the battles that made mainstream media, you can attribute to us (and the people we fought against).


I might have my history wrong ... but I came after MC turned on BoB (which as far as I remember didn't involve goons -- although grr goons for disbanding BoB. Well played, though).

Also, Ubiqua Seraph Cool

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Montey Haul
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#956 - 2014-08-20 12:03:03 UTC
I have enjoyed the EVE/Somer Blink gaming for years. I have developed a lot of friends and appreciation for the people in the EVE chat that Somer Blink had running as well. I feel like the community of EVE has suffered a great loss due to the "Not being very clear", with everything involved here. I will miss the chat, I will miss the enjoyment of Blinking, and most of all I miss the EVE that was. CCP and the folks that have pushed new changes over and over and over again seem to be missing the mark. For me the changes are just killing the enjoyment of the game I enjoyed very much in the past. I guess all things must come to an end eventually. I wish Somer the best in all future endeavors and want to take the opportunity to say "Thank You Somer Blink". I am sorry to see the comments condemning anyone before the proofs are put forth. I think there are a good many folks that have put the accusations ahead of the proof here. Valid or not... The endorsements have been very evident in the past and; I will greatly miss the folks and friends that made Somer Blink a large part of my in game enjoyment.
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#957 - 2014-08-20 12:03:06 UTC
Enaris Kerle wrote:
Cryo Kool wrote:
Finding enough evidence to get a conviction for it will be next to impossible though.

This isn't a criminal trial. You don't have to prove things beyond a reasonable doubt here.

I'd think you'd expect some modicum of respect if your accounts were under investigation for, say, stumbling on an exploit. Just saying, there has to be some standard applied to the way bans are handed out.

Queue "something something rmt != exploit" if you say this you're missing my point and telling me something I already know.
Cryo Kool
Tax Holiday
#958 - 2014-08-20 12:04:41 UTC
Loki O'Grady wrote:
Cryo Kool wrote:

Indeed. My initial questions after reading the proposal was, what are they going to use this potentially unlimited supply of plex for and why are they willing to pay an unspecified amount over market to ensure they receive them.


The way plex prices are going up and up, all he'd need to do is sit on them for a few weeks before selling them for more than he paid.

I doubt generating more isk was his primary concern; the gambling alone generated more than he could spend. Converting it to real money would be the only motivation I could think of.
Enaris Kerle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#959 - 2014-08-20 12:04:52 UTC
Cryo Kool wrote:
There needs to be some minimum evidence standard or players will have the impression there is no due process involved in permanently banning their account.

But here's the thing: due process is not necessary. CCP can ban you anyway for saying your favorite food is raspberry yogurt.

Now I'm not saying it isn't a good idea to look impartial to your players, but in the end you (and me, and pretty much everyone posting in this thread) aren't involved, so, in accordance with their policies, I don't expect CCP to publicly post evidence or the outcome of the investigation anyway.

Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm.
Sion Kumitomo
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#960 - 2014-08-20 12:06:01 UTC
Chribba wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Given that we’re unable to provide reimbursements as per section 1.3 of our reimbursement policy, it’s good to see that SOMER Blink is shutting down in a controlled and stable manner, and that players will be able to withdraw their ISK and / or assets.

While we will be monitoring this closely, we have no intention of interfering with this process, as we feel that allowing players to be able to have their assets and / or ISK returned by SOMER Blink of their own free will is an important part of bringing this situation to a solid resolution.

We’ll have more information for you guys tomorrow, once myself and CCP Leeloo get back into the office and speak to the relevant people, including the CSM.

This remains a top priority for the community team, those involved in other parts of CCP, and the CSM.

Thanks for your patience while we work on bringing this to a close.


So I hope this means that just because Somer decided to shut down themselves, the investigation is not over? If they are found "guilty" I still expect actions to be taken. Just because someone decides to cease on their own free will doesn't make it a get out of jail free card for the things done...

I understand that it's a delicate situation and that CCP also do not wish to see players of Somer getting punished (where not needed) because they played a game where the operator did wrong things - but still allowing the bad guys to offload everything to alts and what not is also kinda of a slap on the wrist. Like said, I know it's delicate and hard. But I really don't want to see you drop the ball on this.

/c


While I can't speak for CCP, the CSM has no desire to see the ball dropped on this either. More information will be forthcoming, no doubt after we have another string of meetings, and suffice it to say that I'm broadly positive as to how this matter is being handled on CCP's end. They're giving this a lot of thought, looking at it from all the angles, and are making a good faith effort to do right by the community. In a situation this large and complicated, that will take some time.

On twitter @siggonK