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Getting Free Gank Kills Courtesy The CODE. Alliance
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Anal Canal
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#241 - 2014-08-19 22:27:09 UTC
Tengu Grib wrote:
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
DrysonBennington wrote:

Once CONCORD arrives and destroys your ship the aggression countdown begins. Five minutes after CONCORD arrives attack either the Bumping ship or the target with the second alt to draw a fresh group of CONCORD to the scene.

Continue to employ this tactic for as long as the targeted ship remains on auto-pilot. If CODE decides to arrive and do any ganking then CONCORD will already be on the scene and CODE will not be able to gank their prize.


I just can't help myself!!

On a side note, I seem to recall CCP saying that baiting CONCORD like you advocate above is against the EULA... can't recall the exact post, but it was in response to ganks during the heyday of Hulkageddon.

Wait really? So baiting Concorde into an ice belt is against the EULA? Huh, if so I might have to report a number of ice miners in my area.



From my understanding yes. CONCORD is meant to be a presence of retribution and prevention, not protection. From what I understand that it is against game mechanics to have a throwaway alt 'attack' causing CONCORD to spawn that can no be pulled away. Hence acting as an NPC police force. Again this is from my understanding of previous posts about this circumstance, but I am no expert regarding this. (Unless CCP will allow me to be one! Lulz)

The Artist Formerly Known As AC. 

The terminal end of the digestive system. 

The Best CSM Candidate
Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#242 - 2014-08-19 22:54:22 UTC
Anal Canal wrote:
Tengu Grib wrote:
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
DrysonBennington wrote:

Once CONCORD arrives and destroys your ship the aggression countdown begins. Five minutes after CONCORD arrives attack either the Bumping ship or the target with the second alt to draw a fresh group of CONCORD to the scene.

Continue to employ this tactic for as long as the targeted ship remains on auto-pilot. If CODE decides to arrive and do any ganking then CONCORD will already be on the scene and CODE will not be able to gank their prize.


I just can't help myself!!

On a side note, I seem to recall CCP saying that baiting CONCORD like you advocate above is against the EULA... can't recall the exact post, but it was in response to ganks during the heyday of Hulkageddon.

Wait really? So baiting Concorde into an ice belt is against the EULA? Huh, if so I might have to report a number of ice miners in my area.



From my understanding yes. CONCORD is meant to be a presence of retribution and prevention, not protection. From what I understand that it is against game mechanics to have a throwaway alt 'attack' causing CONCORD to spawn that can no be pulled away. Hence acting as an NPC police force. Again this is from my understanding of previous posts about this circumstance, but I am no expert regarding this. (Unless CCP will allow me to be one! Lulz)


Interesting...

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.
DrysonBennington
Eagle's Talon's
#243 - 2014-08-20 00:12:29 UTC
According to scuttlebutt Loyalonon has quit CODE.

So Loyal has quit CODE then? I would expect the rest of CODE to do so likewise. Each CODE member will become part of a new corporation where the fledgling corp or alliance will engage in ganking across a much wider area within the Universe. Why would this tactic work? Because CODE was humiliated in the Tournament, yes but now they have even more opportunity to be taken in by Fan Boy Corporations that like CODE. Once the Fan Boys take in the CODE dissidents I would expect that each CODE dissident would Awox the alliance and take with them those most loyal to CODE's cause and then rejoin into a much larger and more deadly CODE. Alliance.
Regnag Leppod
Doomheim
#244 - 2014-08-20 00:39:25 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:

From my understanding of game mechanics, the best defense against a suicide gank in progress of a sufficiently large target (Freighter, Orca, etc.) isn't DPS or EWar, it's remote reps. It counteracts the damage being applied immediately, it benefits from the target's resists instead of being penalized by them, and can be applied sooner because not only are their targets much larger (and easier to lock), friendly logis can hav their target locked and remote reps running before the gankers even land on-grid. This assumes that the gankers even bother in the face of strong logistic support.


Setting aside the issue of getting in on killmails easy, it seems, on the surface, that logi would be the weakest tactic. (Again, "on the surface". I know very little about logi).

DPS: objective is to blow them up before they kill the target.
EWAR: keep them from doing any damage at all, or minimizing their damge before Concord pops them.
Logi: give the target ship more EHP.

Logi doesn't appear, at first look, like it would be able to counter the amount of incoming dps that the Catalysts put out. They are doing something like 400dps each. A T1 medium remote armor repper does, at base numbers, something like 32hp repaired per second.
Even if you've got enough cap to constantly run 3 of those on a cruiser, you're not even negating the dps of just one Catalyst.

This doesn't mean that logi is a bad way to solve the issue, but it does show how the numbers may lead people to believe it's an ineffective method as opposed to EWAR or just raw DPS against the aggressors.

What I'd like to know is what I'm missing here in regards to logistics, as to how it *can* be made effective in this circumstance.
Voyager Arran
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#245 - 2014-08-20 02:59:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Voyager Arran
Remote Reps are crazy strong. It sounds like you're looking at the base stats of the module without factoring in skills or hull bonuses and then also overlooking the fact that incoming reps are amplified by resistances (ie, repairing 100 shields on a ship with 50% resistances means it takes another 200 damage to kill them). I have missed solo ganks, which tend to operate on pretty thin margins, because of a single unbonused large rep on an attendant Orca that tabbed back in when he heard sirens going off.

That said, ECM is probably the best bet. Trying to shoot the Catalysts to death is the worst option in general; they're all going to die in 20 seconds anyways and you don't actually start doing anything to mitigate the incoming damage until one of them is 100% dead.
412nv Yaken
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#246 - 2014-08-20 05:01:06 UTC
DrysonBennington wrote:
According to scuttlebutt Loyalonon has quit CODE.

So Loyal has quit CODE then? I would expect the rest of CODE to do so likewise. Each CODE member will become part of a new corporation where the fledgling corp or alliance will engage in ganking across a much wider area within the Universe. Why would this tactic work? Because CODE was humiliated in the Tournament, yes but now they have even more opportunity to be taken in by Fan Boy Corporations that like CODE. Once the Fan Boys take in the CODE dissidents I would expect that each CODE dissident would Awox the alliance and take with them those most loyal to CODE's cause and then rejoin into a much larger and more deadly CODE. Alliance.


News to me

Perhaps focus on your scissor technique and not propaganda

A True Champion of High Security Space
loyalanon
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#247 - 2014-08-20 05:03:59 UTC
DrysonBennington wrote:
According to scuttlebutt Loyalonon has quit CODE.

So Loyal has quit CODE then? I would expect the rest of CODE to do so likewise. Each CODE member will become part of a new corporation where the fledgling corp or alliance will engage in ganking across a much wider area within the Universe. Why would this tactic work? Because CODE was humiliated in the Tournament, yes but now they have even more opportunity to be taken in by Fan Boy Corporations that like CODE. Once the Fan Boys take in the CODE dissidents I would expect that each CODE dissident would Awox the alliance and take with them those most loyal to CODE's cause and then rejoin into a much larger and more deadly CODE. Alliance.



Last I checked im still in Code Alliance and still Ganking.

Not getting my EULA mandated covert ops/pvp capable freighter started making me 2nd guess myself however.

Any chance you can give me some scissor attack techniques so that I can feel better?
DJentropy Ovaert
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#248 - 2014-08-20 05:04:18 UTC
DrysonBennington wrote:
According to scuttlebutt Loyalonon has quit CODE.

So Loyal has quit CODE then? I would expect the rest of CODE to do so likewise. Each CODE member will become part of a new corporation where the fledgling corp or alliance will engage in ganking across a much wider area within the Universe. Why would this tactic work? Because CODE was humiliated in the Tournament, yes but now they have even more opportunity to be taken in by Fan Boy Corporations that like CODE. Once the Fan Boys take in the CODE dissidents I would expect that each CODE dissident would Awox the alliance and take with them those most loyal to CODE's cause and then rejoin into a much larger and more deadly CODE. Alliance.


Confirming that Loyalanon, myself, and every other member of the CODE. alliance has either quit or is in the process of quitting due to not beable to handle DrysonBennington's sadness about how hard we won in the Alliance Tournment.

Please, tell us more. Scissor me timbers!
Anal Canal
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#249 - 2014-08-20 05:06:06 UTC
DJentropy Ovaert wrote:
DrysonBennington wrote:
According to scuttlebutt Loyalonon has quit CODE.

So Loyal has quit CODE then? I would expect the rest of CODE to do so likewise. Each CODE member will become part of a new corporation where the fledgling corp or alliance will engage in ganking across a much wider area within the Universe. Why would this tactic work? Because CODE was humiliated in the Tournament, yes but now they have even more opportunity to be taken in by Fan Boy Corporations that like CODE. Once the Fan Boys take in the CODE dissidents I would expect that each CODE dissident would Awox the alliance and take with them those most loyal to CODE's cause and then rejoin into a much larger and more deadly CODE. Alliance.


Confirming that Loyalanon, myself, and every other member of the CODE. alliance has either quit or is in the process of quitting due to not beable to handle DrysonBennington's sadness about how hard we won in the Alliance Tournment.

Please, tell us more. Scissor me timbers!



Dryson, can I join your corp since I appear to be without one currently?

The Artist Formerly Known As AC. 

The terminal end of the digestive system. 

The Best CSM Candidate
Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#250 - 2014-08-20 05:45:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tengu Grib
Confirming I have quit Code to awox. Also confirming I will find like minded individuals in the corps and recruit them to form a newer stronger Code. I am sure that people will see the light of Code while I ransom their ships and my neutral logi keeps me virtually invulnerable.

I'm becoming more and more convinced that Dryson is actually just a troll. He is likely an alt of Loyalanon trying to generate forum content. If this is the truth it is working and is awesome. If it is not then Dryson is surely mad, and not the angry kind.

Edit: typing on phone = fail

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.
Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#251 - 2014-08-20 05:48:11 UTC
Anal Canal wrote:
DJentropy Ovaert wrote:
DrysonBennington wrote:
According to scuttlebutt Loyalonon has quit CODE.

So Loyal has quit CODE then? I would expect the rest of CODE to do so likewise. Each CODE member will become part of a new corporation where the fledgling corp or alliance will engage in ganking across a much wider area within the Universe. Why would this tactic work? Because CODE was humiliated in the Tournament, yes but now they have even more opportunity to be taken in by Fan Boy Corporations that like CODE. Once the Fan Boys take in the CODE dissidents I would expect that each CODE dissident would Awox the alliance and take with them those most loyal to CODE's cause and then rejoin into a much larger and more deadly CODE. Alliance.


Confirming that Loyalanon, myself, and every other member of the CODE. alliance has either quit or is in the process of quitting due to not beable to handle DrysonBennington's sadness about how hard we won in the Alliance Tournment.

Please, tell us more. Scissor me timbers!



Dryson, can I join your corp since I appear to be without one currently?

Me too. I'll fly with you Dryson.

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#252 - 2014-08-20 11:20:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Bronson Hughes
Regnag Leppod wrote:
Bronson Hughes wrote:

From my understanding of game mechanics, the best defense against a suicide gank in progress of a sufficiently large target (Freighter, Orca, etc.) isn't DPS or EWar, it's remote reps. It counteracts the damage being applied immediately, it benefits from the target's resists instead of being penalized by them, and can be applied sooner because not only are their targets much larger (and easier to lock), friendly logis can hav their target locked and remote reps running before the gankers even land on-grid. This assumes that the gankers even bother in the face of strong logistic support.


Setting aside the issue of getting in on killmails easy, it seems, on the surface, that logi would be the weakest tactic. (Again, "on the surface". I know very little about logi).

DPS: objective is to blow them up before they kill the target.
EWAR: keep them from doing any damage at all, or minimizing their damge before Concord pops them.
Logi: give the target ship more EHP.

Logi doesn't appear, at first look, like it would be able to counter the amount of incoming dps that the Catalysts put out. They are doing something like 400dps each. A T1 medium remote armor repper does, at base numbers, something like 32hp repaired per second.
Even if you've got enough cap to constantly run 3 of those on a cruiser, you're not even negating the dps of just one Catalyst.

This doesn't mean that logi is a bad way to solve the issue, but it does show how the numbers may lead people to believe it's an ineffective method as opposed to EWAR or just raw DPS against the aggressors.

What I'd like to know is what I'm missing here in regards to logistics, as to how it *can* be made effective in this circumstance.



You're overlooking a few things:

1. The target's resists work for the remote repper, and against the incoming DPS. Say a target has 25% resist to an incoming damage type. 100 DPS being done is reduced to 75 while 100 RPS (reps per second) is increased to 125. Each 1% of resist gives a 2% relative advantage to the remote reps.

2. Logi cruisers get bonuses to remote rep amounts. At Cruiser IV, it's a 50% bonus to RPS. I have Caldari Cruiser V, and a large remote shield repper puts out over 100 RPS.

3. The remote reppers don't have to completely overcome the incoming DPS. Really, they don't even have to come close. All they have to do is add enough EHP to the target to throw off the ganker's DPS calculations. The gankers will have, at best, 20 seconds to apply damage before CONCORD kills them. The target doesn't have to live at full health, it just has to live.

Of course, all any of this will do is keep the target alive long enough to be ganked again, and unless the "White Knights" bring enough reps to completely rep the target back to 100%, all they're doing is delaying the inevitable. And, as I've said before, the best counter to suicide ganking will always, 100% be to not be a target. But given current game mechanics, I do really feel that remote repping is the best counter to massed suicide ganks in progress.

Voyager Arran wrote:
That said, ECM is probably the best bet. Trying to shoot the Catalysts to death is the worst option in general; they're all going to die in 20 seconds anyways and you don't actually start doing anything to mitigate the incoming damage until one of them is 100% dead.


I agree that ECM would be very effective against a small gank squad because 1-2 ECM ships can just spread all of their jams evenly. Against a JF-sized gang though, you'd need to start calling targets in order to get jams spread effectively, and getting everything picked, locked, and jammed in 20 seconds seems like a stretch. A really well-coordinated group may be able to pull it off, but the same group in logi cruisers would, I think, have a much bigger impact. Plus, there's the fact that ECM is chance based, whereas remote reps are a sure thing.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Robert Sawyer
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#253 - 2014-08-20 12:20:22 UTC
Wow this post escalated quickly...

"And when, at last, the moment is yours, that agony will become your greatest triumph."
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#254 - 2014-08-20 12:59:36 UTC
DrysonBennington wrote:
According to scuttlebutt Loyalonon has quit CODE.

With tools like evewho, scuttlebutt like this can be dispelled in about 10 seconds.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Regnag Leppod
Doomheim
#255 - 2014-08-20 16:55:10 UTC
Thank you for the info Bronson. Sounds like it might be fun to try at some point in a belt when a small group attacks a barge.
Rabe Raptor
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#256 - 2014-08-20 23:31:53 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
DrysonBennington wrote:
According to scuttlebutt Loyalonon has quit CODE.

With tools like evewho, scuttlebutt like this can be dispelled in about 10 seconds.


I checked snopes.com about loyalanon leaving CODE. but couldn't find anything.

Together we can make Highsec a better place! www.lawofhighsec.com

Read it, share it, learn it, quote it, memorize it,  live it, breathe it!
DJentropy Ovaert
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#257 - 2014-08-21 10:27:45 UTC
Anal Canal wrote:

From my understanding yes. CONCORD is meant to be a presence of retribution and prevention, not protection. From what I understand that it is against game mechanics to have a throwaway alt 'attack' causing CONCORD to spawn that can no be pulled away. Hence acting as an NPC police force. Again this is from my understanding of previous posts about this circumstance, but I am no expert regarding this. (Unless CCP will allow me to be one! Lulz)


Mostly correct, but from what I understand (I'm searching for the "official" CCP response to this, I know it's around somewhere) - the issue is "recycling" alts in order to cause CONCORD to act as a defensive force. For example, creating an alt, using it to cause a CONCORD spawn to move to a specific location, and then once the security status on this alt grows too low for the player in question to want to use it anymore - biomassing it and creating another, and then repeating the process. This is against the rules. As far as I know, spawning CONCORD to try to use them as a defensive force as long as you are NOT recycling alts for this very purpose is totally fine.

On a related note: Anti-gankers and GRRRRR Code types - please focus all your efforts on this strategy. I promise you there are not many ways to counter it, and that it is very effective in denying us kills :-)
DJentropy Ovaert
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#258 - 2014-08-21 10:34:10 UTC
Tengu Grib wrote:


I'm becoming more and more convinced that Dryson is actually just a troll. He is likely an alt of Loyalanon trying to generate forum content. If this is the truth it is working and is awesome. If it is not then Dryson is surely mad, and not the angry kind.

Edit: typing on phone = fail


Without going into very specific details (though they would be funny) - I can tell you that Dryson is actually serious and not simply a New Order troll trying to generate content.

For a fun example: internal communications from "secret" anti-ganking groups pledging their financial / material support on the sole condition that Dryson is never allowed to FC, lead, or in any way be promoted to any type of leadership role.

For a more fun example: Fun loving EVE players who LOVE to PVP against code and enjoy a "GF" with us, and don't get all weird and personal about spaceship pew pew pew literally begging me on voice comms to just "Please, please, figure out a way to recruit Dryson and get him to leave our groups - we are worried he has literally lost his mind and his forum posts sure do not help"

So, yeah, Dryson is that magical combo. Totally serious and totally ineffective with VERY strong opinions and no sense of fun. Never a LOL, never a "GF" in local - just sadness, hurt feelings, rage and clever ideas such as the tech 2 Noctis for "high-sec belt ratting", the mighty "Scissoring Technique", and my personal favorite: the demand that CCP buff freighters right now due to his spaceship lawyer skills :P
Rabe Raptor
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#259 - 2014-08-21 11:11:21 UTC
DJentropy Ovaert wrote:
Tengu Grib wrote:


I'm becoming more and more convinced that Dryson is actually just a troll. He is likely an alt of Loyalanon trying to generate forum content. If this is the truth it is working and is awesome. If it is not then Dryson is surely mad, and not the angry kind.

Edit: typing on phone = fail


Without going into very specific details (though they would be funny) - I can tell you that Dryson is actually serious and not simply a New Order troll trying to generate content.

For a fun example: internal communications from "secret" anti-ganking groups pledging their financial / material support on the sole condition that Dryson is never allowed to FC, lead, or in any way be promoted to any type of leadership role.

For a more fun example: Fun loving EVE players who LOVE to PVP against code and enjoy a "GF" with us, and don't get all weird and personal about spaceship pew pew pew literally begging me on voice comms to just "Please, please, figure out a way to recruit Dryson and get him to leave our groups - we are worried he has literally lost his mind and his forum posts sure do not help"

So, yeah, Dryson is that magical combo. Totally serious and totally ineffective with VERY strong opinions and no sense of fun. Never a LOL, never a "GF" in local - just sadness, hurt feelings, rage and clever ideas such as the tech 2 Noctis for "high-sec belt ratting", the mighty "Scissoring Technique", and my personal favorite: the demand that CCP buff freighters right now due to his spaceship lawyer skills :P


Dryson is my favorite Eve player. He makes me really happy.

Together we can make Highsec a better place! www.lawofhighsec.com

Read it, share it, learn it, quote it, memorize it,  live it, breathe it!
DJentropy Ovaert
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#260 - 2014-08-21 11:43:36 UTC  |  Edited by: DJentropy Ovaert
Rabe Raptor wrote:


Dryson is my favorite Eve player. He makes me really happy.


My day always gets a little brighter the second I see a new post or reply from him anywhere. I always leave with a smile on my face and that wonderful feeling that only comes from enjoying a good bout of laughter! :)

*edit: Really feeling the lack of new ship types created by him posted in Features and Ideas as of late. I hope Dryson knows that simple to the ISD's shutting down his most recent one all of 3 mins after posting that many of us are still here, wanting more!