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Community Concerns Regarding SOMERblink

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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#181 - 2014-08-19 09:12:25 UTC
I read Somer's proposal text in full (linked on his site) and if you do, it's pretty obvious IMO that the wording and order of given information is intentionally misleading. Furthermore the claimed intention (provide a service to players to ease in game PLEX selling) makes no business sense in combination with a negative ISK fee unless you include the real money part.

BUT what if the scheme is altered to give out the Jita sell price -1 Mio in fees for the service?

I'm my own NPC alt.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#182 - 2014-08-19 09:21:04 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
For all you folks gathering the pitchforks and torches and learning to tie ropes into nooses. Do you expect a single or mass execution? Just Somer or Somer and staff or Somer staff and anybody who has ever done business with them?
On the Somer side, I expect the usual treatment. Somer should be permabanned, as would any other account directly involved with the running of Somer as a business, an all assets removed. The staff that aren't at that high level should just have all Somer assets removed. Usually with RMT, there is no messing about, the account involved are gone and the isk/items are taken, simple as that. I don't expect this to be any different. If it is, that shows that there is unfair leniency being shown to Somer.

Mike Azariah wrote:
Or if you are heading the mob towards CCP are you looking for the one person mentioned in the 'email leak' or their entire staff or (as some of you love to ask for) the entire senior management team of CCP for allowing this to take place? Community and CSM thrown in for good measure, no doubt.
From CCP, all I expect is an understanding of what went wrong, how it went wrong, and the steps that will be taken to prevent it reoccurring. I'm certainly not screaming for anyone's head on a stick. Whether or not they think any punishment is due internally is up to them and none of our business.

And I'd say the CSM have handled this one exceptionally and thank you all for that. There's clearly a lot of effort going on to make sure that people are as in the loop as possible, and that there's an assurance it's being looked at. The only worry people have is that like has happened before, the results will be underwhelming and nothing will change, with this just getting swept away. Do us all a favour and ensure that doesn't happen. Perhaps if results began to meet the expectations for the community, we'd see less people losing faith in CCPs ability to deal with these situations.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#183 - 2014-08-19 09:28:19 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
I read Somer's proposal text in full (linked on his site) and if you do, it's pretty obvious IMO that the wording and order of given information is intentionally misleading. Furthermore the claimed intention (provide a service to players to ease in game PLEX selling) makes no business sense in combination with a negative ISK fee unless you include the real money part.

BUT what if the scheme is altered to give out the Jita sell price -1 Mio in fees for the service?
Indeed, it was designed to sound like it was purposely avoiding RMT while in actual fact facilitating it. As for the altered scheme, I'd say that it's still mixing up in game items with real cash, and is dangerous ground to leave open. Additionally, I think Somer have used up all of their "benefit of the doubt" cards. It wouldn't be unreasonable for CCP to disallow Somer's use of any GTC affiliate program through any reseller.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#184 - 2014-08-19 09:34:04 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
I have a bottle of shampoo in my hands. Nowhere on the label does it mention anything about cleaning my hair. It just says "shampoo" with a few ingredients and sales points based around them, and some instructions on how to use it, but no explicit claim that it's gonna clean my hair. I guess it's all intended to deceive, and by virtue of that, it probably won't wash my hair. Am I right?

So, who's really 'quibbling' with words?


Maybe you should consider getting a better shampoo.

The label on mine starts with:
"Cleaning and conditioning in one step"


Quote:
Blink provides no extra ISK or bonus Blink credit for buying through the link. Instead, we make it easy to sell your PLEX and get your ISK quickly, no matter where you are-- no Jita alt required. This is a service, in keeping with CCP's new guidelines that ETC affiliate link rewards should be service-oriented.


Buying PLEX for 50m over sell orders sounds a lot like the "extra ISK" you might give to an RMT peddler for the "convenience" of their home delivery of one trit. Also sounds a lot like the "extra ISK" the proposal specifically promises not to offer.


As for whether approval matters, well, CCP "approved" the abuse of the Magnetar exploit in a petition filed using carefully obfuscated language. How'd AHARM fare in the fallout of that?


Mike Azariah does have a serious point though, it's incredibly difficult to figure out how to punish businesses for crimes in a way that both satisfies our desire for apparent fairness (Bob went to prison for life when he killed his wife, BiggCorp got a fine for killing 20 people?) and takes into account the fact that businesses are fundamentally different (Do we put BiggCorp's Janitor in prison along with the rest of the employees?).
Personally, I think severing business ties with Markee Dragon (who keeps being involved in shady stuff) and slapping Blink with an ISK fine (if for no other reason than that trying to go after a cash fine would be hard) is about the resolution I'd hope for (assuming there's no exculpatory evidence not yet made public, ofc).

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#185 - 2014-08-19 09:49:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
I see this as a case of cat-and-mouse, that shouldn't involve bans. I actually kinda don't care about SOMER's benefit or gain. however, what I am concerned about is whether SOMER's PLEX volumes should have caused any flags with CCP, and whether CCP should be more active in intervening for the sake of PLEX prices (based on these types of indicators).

specifically, these things:

-what volume of PLEX SOMER acquired through its bonus program

-what was done with those PLEX (was it hoarded, resold, speculated with)

-what impact SOMER had on PLEX prices (did it contribute to PLEX inflation to a significant degree)

if this was something that was caught sooner than later, great. but what about the future--before this bonus sequence was brought to light, couldn't / shouldn't this have raised questions CCP-side purely based on volume of PLEX?

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#186 - 2014-08-19 09:51:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Tipa Riot
Lucas Kell wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
I read Somer's proposal text in full (linked on his site) and if you do, it's pretty obvious IMO that the wording and order of given information is intentionally misleading. Furthermore the claimed intention (provide a service to players to ease in game PLEX selling) makes no business sense in combination with a negative ISK fee unless you include the real money part.

BUT what if the scheme is altered to give out the Jita sell price -1 Mio in fees for the service?
Indeed, it was designed to sound like it was purposely avoiding RMT while in actual fact facilitating it. As for the altered scheme, I'd say that it's still mixing up in game items with real cash, and is dangerous ground to leave open. Additionally, I think Somer have used up all of their "benefit of the doubt" cards. It wouldn't be unreasonable for CCP to disallow Somer's use of any GTC affiliate program through any reseller.

The challenge with this hypothetical alteration of the scheme is, it would set Somer almost* in par with any other 3rd party service like our beloved killboards ... we all are sure, linking in game ISK-valued benefits for real money (wherever it comes from) is RMT and bad; but non-(direct)-ISK-valued benefits are ok?

* There is still one maybe crucial difference to killboards and news sites, in case of Somer there is a hard link between the affiliate program generating the real money and the in-game benefit, though you could argue this rule to be required to prevent abuse etc.

I'm my own NPC alt.
Dilligafmofo
3WAYFOUNDATIONS
New Miner's Union
#187 - 2014-08-19 09:53:07 UTC
How many eve players are there?

CCP now into 2nd day of investigations to pander to 50 -60 butthurt whiners on this subject.

Ya'll need to get a life.

Who is getting hurt here? how many have and continue to benefit from Somer's donations and sponsorship?


Band waggon jumpers the lot of you
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#188 - 2014-08-19 10:01:15 UTC
Dilligafmofo wrote:
How many eve players are there?

CCP now into 2nd day of investigations to pander to 50 -60 butthurt whiners on this subject.

Ya'll need to get a life.

Who is getting hurt here? how many have and continue to benefit from Somer's donations and sponsorship?


Band waggon jumpers the lot of you


1) Most players don't post on the forums but that's not a good reason to ignore the forums

2) 85 unique authors in this thread, 106 in the last, probably a whole lot more in last year's somergate threads. This isn't a small number of "butthurt whiners", sorry

3) Whether it affects any individual in this thread or not is irrelevant. There are a lot of things that scarcely affect you that you dislike and would protest.

4) Blink is not a charity, it is a for-profit enterprise in and out of game. Shocking, I know. Donations and sponsorship are solely for the sake of publicity.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
KaRa DaVuT
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#189 - 2014-08-19 10:03:07 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
On the Somer side, I expect the usual treatment. Somer should be permabanned, as would any other account directly involved with the running of Somer as a business, an all assets removed. The staff that aren't at that high level should just have all Somer assets removed. Usually with RMT, there is no messing about, the account involved are gone and the isk/items are taken, simple as that. I don't expect this to be any different. If it is, that shows that there is unfair leniency being shown to Somer.
.


This.

+1 If this wont happen, then it means the EULA is no more. You can't just keep some people above the laws. Its not just or right.

Holiness is in right action and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. What God desires is in your heart and on your mind... And what you decide to do every day, makes you - not your race - a good man - or not.
Derrick Miles
Death Rabbit Ky Oneida
#190 - 2014-08-19 10:10:55 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
I read Somer's proposal text in full (linked on his site) and if you do, it's pretty obvious IMO that the wording and order of given information is intentionally misleading. Furthermore the claimed intention (provide a service to players to ease in game PLEX selling) makes no business sense in combination with a negative ISK fee unless you include the real money part.

BUT what if the scheme is altered to give out the Jita sell price -1 Mio in fees for the service?

Then it would become RMT with a bad exchange rate.
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#191 - 2014-08-19 10:11:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Aralyn Cormallen
RubyPorto wrote:

Quote:
Blink provides no extra ISK or bonus Blink credit for buying through the link. Instead, we make it easy to sell your PLEX and get your ISK quickly, no matter where you are-- no Jita alt required. This is a service, in keeping with CCP's new guidelines that ETC affiliate link rewards should be service-oriented.


Buying PLEX for 50m over sell orders sounds a lot like the "extra ISK" you might give to an RMT peddler for the "convenience" of their home delivery of one trit. Also sounds a lot like the "extra ISK" the proposal specifically promises not to offer.


That's where it gets clever - there is no "extra isk" for buying the Plex. The "extra isk" appears when you sell that Plex back to them. The order it is all mentioned is there to imply the "no extra isk" carries throughout the entirety of the transaction, when the wording specifically limits it to only the first part, leaving them free to crap all over the spirit of the words in the second part, and allowing them to feign ignorance and claim never to have misled anyone, since their use of "best possible price" later for the by-back signifies that of course you would get the "best possible", which by definition is "more than anyone else anywhere" (ie: the market) will give you.

It is highly heavy on the technicality, and therefore slimy as all hell wording.
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#192 - 2014-08-19 10:15:01 UTC
Dilligafmofo wrote:
How many eve players are there?

CCP now into 2nd day of investigations to pander to 50 -60 butthurt whiners on this subject.

Ya'll need to get a life.

Who is getting hurt here? how many have and continue to benefit from Somer's donations and sponsorship?


Band waggon jumpers the lot of you


Hello, alt of Somer. Please go away.
Dilligafmofo
3WAYFOUNDATIONS
New Miner's Union
#193 - 2014-08-19 10:22:32 UTC
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:
Dilligafmofo wrote:
How many eve players are there?

CCP now into 2nd day of investigations to pander to 50 -60 butthurt whiners on this subject.

Ya'll need to get a life.

Who is getting hurt here? how many have and continue to benefit from Somer's donations and sponsorship?


Band waggon jumpers the lot of you


Hello, alt of Somer. Please go away.



lol, I wish mate
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#194 - 2014-08-19 10:26:23 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Buying PLEX for 50m over sell orders sounds a lot like the "extra ISK" you might give to an RMT peddler for the "convenience" of their home delivery of one trit. Also sounds a lot like the "extra ISK" the proposal specifically promises not to offer.

That's where it gets clever - there is no "extra isk" for buying the Plex. The "extra isk" appears when you sell that Plex back to them. The order it is all mentioned is there to imply the "no extra isk" carries throughout the entirety of the transaction, when the wording specifically limits it to only the first part, leaving them free to crap all over the spirit of the words in the second part, and allowing them to feign ignorance and claim never to have misled anyone, since their use of "best possible price" later for the by-back signifies that of course you would get the "best possible", which by definition is "more than anyone else anywhere" (ie: the market) will give you.

It is highly heavy on the technicality, and therefore slimy as all hell wording.

I know Skilling is still locked up tight, but Andy Fastow has been let out by now, right? Because that would explain a lot… P
staley johnson
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#195 - 2014-08-19 10:26:33 UTC  |  Edited by: staley johnson
Dilligafmofo wrote:
How many eve players are there?

CCP now into 2nd day of investigations to pander to 50 -60 butthurt whiners on this subject.

Ya'll need to get a life.

Who is getting hurt here? how many have and continue to benefit from Somer's donations and sponsorship?


Band waggon jumpers the lot of you


It'a hard to read this post without imagining the sound of banjos in the background. Part of the reason I stopped playing so much is because of the original blink gate. If this arrangement is sanctioned by CCP (which it likely is) it highlights another case of terrible corporate decision making. I'll be here with my bag of popcorn waiting for an RMT ban to never arrive
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#196 - 2014-08-19 10:26:49 UTC
Derrick Miles wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
I read Somer's proposal text in full (linked on his site) and if you do, it's pretty obvious IMO that the wording and order of given information is intentionally misleading. Furthermore the claimed intention (provide a service to players to ease in game PLEX selling) makes no business sense in combination with a negative ISK fee unless you include the real money part.

BUT what if the scheme is altered to give out the Jita sell price -1 Mio in fees for the service?

Then it would become RMT with a bad exchange rate.

Somer is the receiver of the real money hence it's actually a better rate for them. ... and the benefit looks still strong enough to encourage people to buy PLEX through their affiliation program.

I'm my own NPC alt.
KaRa DaVuT
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#197 - 2014-08-19 10:28:22 UTC  |  Edited by: KaRa DaVuT
Dilligafmofo wrote:
How many eve players are there?

CCP now into 2nd day of investigations to pander to 50 -60 butthurt whiners on this subject.

Ya'll need to get a life.

Who is getting hurt here? how many have and continue to benefit from Somer's donations and sponsorship?


Band waggon jumpers the lot of you



Are you insane or just trolling I don know but, I dont want any perosn to think hes above me in terms of EULA.

If RMT is not a go for CCP, and against the rules, then they should do it accordingly. Rules must be applied to everyone equally.

You asked "who is getting hurt here?" then you really did not understand the topic.

This is not related with someone getting money through eve.

This is all about CCP not making its rules to apply anyone. If we say this ok, then in future, they can accept "some" bots that they "favour", and after that maybe they can apply the EULA at their will.

When a day comes and you lost your ship becaose of server issue and when you petitioned, they can answer you " you are not favoured for us so we wont reimburse it even if its reason is our bad servers". Who will getting hurt then?

There is no difference.

Holiness is in right action and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. What God desires is in your heart and on your mind... And what you decide to do every day, makes you - not your race - a good man - or not.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#198 - 2014-08-19 10:36:04 UTC
Dilligafmofo wrote:
How many eve players are there?

CCP now into 2nd day of investigations to pander to 50 -60 butthurt whiners on this subject.

Ya'll need to get a life.

Who is getting hurt here? how many have and continue to benefit from Somer's donations and sponsorship?


Band waggon jumpers the lot of you
To be perfectly honest, I don't give a damn personally.

But...

I use and enjoy a great number of third party services; to name a few:

. Dotlan
. Eve Search
. Eve Offline
. Eve Who
. Eveboard
. EFT
. Evemon
. Aura
. zkillboard
. eve-kill
. battleclinic
. fuzzwork
. TMC (yes, even TMC)
. Crossing Zebras

I'm very grateful to the dudes that develop and run all this stuff. I don't use Somer, but it's also fine with me that many people enjoy throwing ISK at that scam.


The point is, I can easily understand how some or all of these people might be a bit pissed if/when CCP's rules for making some money out of EVE-related services aren't clear and fair for all. So I'm simply throwing my voice in (fwiw, obviously) to support clear and fair rules for all third-party service providers.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#199 - 2014-08-19 10:36:45 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
That's where it gets clever - there is no "extra isk" for buying the Plex. The "extra isk" appears when you sell that Plex back to them. The order it is all mentioned is there to imply the "no extra isk" carries throughout the entirety of the transaction, when the wording specifically limits it to only the first part, leaving them free to crap all over the spirit of the words in the second part, and allowing them to feign ignorance and claim never to have misled anyone, since their use of "best possible price" later for the by-back signifies that of course you would get the "best possible", which by definition is "more than anyone else anywhere" (ie: the market) will give you.

It is highly heavy on the technicality, and therefore slimy as all hell wording.


I follow. That's some really great loophole writing right there.

I like how it specifies that they won't give "ISK or Blink credit" and then they go and invent a new currency that you can trade for ISK.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Derrick Miles
Death Rabbit Ky Oneida
#200 - 2014-08-19 10:46:30 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
Derrick Miles wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
I read Somer's proposal text in full (linked on his site) and if you do, it's pretty obvious IMO that the wording and order of given information is intentionally misleading. Furthermore the claimed intention (provide a service to players to ease in game PLEX selling) makes no business sense in combination with a negative ISK fee unless you include the real money part.

BUT what if the scheme is altered to give out the Jita sell price -1 Mio in fees for the service?

Then it would become RMT with a bad exchange rate.

Somer is the receiver of the real money hence it's actually a better rate for them. ... and the benefit looks still strong enough to encourage people to buy PLEX through their affiliation program.

Yes...and it would still be RMT, and thus not allowed by CCP rules. Or so I would have thought a few days ago, at any rate.