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[Hyperion] Nestor Tweaks

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Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#341 - 2014-08-18 06:58:27 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Nullifier would still be a great fleet asset...

Focused Warp Disruption Script and no point of bringing this subsystem. Am i right?

baltec1 ... wrote:
and T3 is slated to land between T1 and T2.


I was wrong. Riots not tears, bloody riots, and useless hulls. Whole swiss army knife idea. Sooo wrong, but it's not my circus, not my monkeys.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Joraa Starkmanir
Station Spinners United
#342 - 2014-08-18 07:01:10 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:


Never going to happen, nullifier would be useless. Also making T3 somewhere beetwen T1 and T2 wouldn't be wise (what T1,5?). Everybody wants to fly best ships in current class, T3 is best. If you nerf them so much why the hell anybody would want to fly this things? Because you can build your own ship with subsystems? Skill points loss? It should be best among cruisers but worse than BS. I'm really curious what they will do to T3, there will be oceans of tears, all those rage quits.
I'm tired of "we will nerf module but it will be better if you overheat it". Try it with painter on PvE BS...Everytime i see Fozzieman post i expect he will took some fun and gave nothing in return. Sometimes i have no idea what is the idea behind ship balancing.


Between T1 and T2 in spesific roles
-Less dps than the highest T2 cruiser, but more then T1 cruisers.
-Less EHP / tank than the tankiest T2 cruiser but more than T1 cruisers.
-Less speed than the fastest T2 cruiser, but more than T1 cruisers.
-Less potent EWAR than T2 cruisers, but better than T1 cruisers.


A good example is Loki EWAR subsystem
Loki get +30% range / level
Minmatar Recons have +60% range for web and 10% TP bonus / level
Bellicose dont get web range but +7,5% TP bonuse / level
Here we see T3 getting alot of use with only haft the web bonus that its T2 counterpart get, and that is due to EHP that the Recons can not compare with.


So its pretty easy to imagine that a lower bonus compared to T2 will still be very much usefull and worth it as long as it better in another area than the spesific T2 (in this example Loki is alot more tanky compared to bouth the recons)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#343 - 2014-08-18 07:26:03 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Nullifier would still be a great fleet asset...

Focused Warp Disruption Script and no point of bringing this subsystem. Am i right?

baltec1 ... wrote:
and T3 is slated to land between T1 and T2.


I was wrong. Riots not tears, bloody riots, and useless hulls. Whole swiss army knife idea. Sooo wrong, but it's not my circus, not my monkeys.



Good luck getting 150-200 focused points.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#344 - 2014-08-18 07:53:15 UTC
Joraa Starkmanir wrote:
So its pretty easy to imagine that a lower bonus compared to T2 will still be very much usefull and worth it as long as it better in another area than the spesific T2 (in this example Loki is alot more tanky compared to bouth the recons)


EHP will be nerfed in the first place because is insane OP, so lower "role" bonus and nerfed EHP will cause meh ships. People always will choose best ship for the role, not good.

Joraa Starkmanir wrote:
Between T1 and T2 in spesific roles
-Less dps than the highest T2 cruiser, but more then T1 cruisers.
-Less EHP / tank than the tankiest T2 cruiser but more than T1 cruisers.
-Less speed than the fastest T2 cruiser, but more than T1 cruisers.
-Less potent EWAR than T2 cruisers, but better than T1 cruisers.


What is the key word here? Less. If you can mix these as less dps than T2 but more EHP than one or better speed but less EHP that's the direction i think. Work for years. They can't even balance "ordinary" ships and Seagull was threating they will bring new ones in the near future (this year i presume). Nestor is good example.

Joraa Starkmanir wrote:
Here we see T3 getting alot of use with only haft the web bonus that its T2 counterpart get, and that is due to EHP that the Recons can not compare with.

And if you remove the EHP, which is OP, T3 will not be used in this role anymore. Balance. Switching one ship to another.
Good times ahead, forums will burn Big smile

Where the any ships with hangar bay to carry frigates in the past? Is Nestor usefull in WHs? What is it purpose anyway? Clearly not exploration. I saw one undocked few day ago...

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Joraa Starkmanir
Station Spinners United
#345 - 2014-08-18 07:59:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Joraa Starkmanir
Jeremiah Saken wrote:


I dont think EHP will be nerfed to anywhere close to current Recon stats (wet paper bag).
Sure it will most likely get a nerf, but boosting the other parts of the ships may very well make up for it.
Lets say you can use a T3 with 90% of the repping compared to a Logistic cruiser, and almost as good EWAR as recons completed with close to top tier EHP/sig tank for cruisers. That would mean you can take 1 pilot to logi+ewar OR you can take the same 2 pilots and get more use out of bouth.

To be completly honest i ahve not looked at all the configurations a T3 can do atm (good or bad) but a ship that can do several roles should never be better than a ship dedicated to a single role


EDIT: since this is getting away from the Nestor i think we just have to agree we dont agree on T3 balance Shocked
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#346 - 2014-08-18 08:05:15 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Good luck getting 150-200 focused points.


"You may say i'm a dreamer but i'm not the only one..." again, it won't hits TQ, way too overpowered.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
TheMercenaryKing
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#347 - 2014-08-18 14:15:02 UTC
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
Upon further investigation into the Nestor I came up with a few changes I would implement.

Power Grid: 13000 (+1750)
Max Velocity: 100 (+8)
Signature: 420 (-45)
Sensor Strength: 26 (+2)
Roles:
10+ bonus to Relic and Data Analyzer virus strength
50% Reduction in Remote Armor Repair Capacitor Usage


Fozzie, what are your thoughts? Any more changes you are looking at?
Vulfen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#348 - 2014-08-18 14:34:25 UTC
Fozzie

Please get rid of the Relic & Analyzer bonuses, also remove the scan strength bonuses
Noone will use this ship to do this role, its plain pointless

I would like to see a RR cap bonus added, somewhere between 25-50%

I agree with not giving this a jumpdrive or covert abilities however, how about a role note that says it can be jumped through a cov ops bridge? this way they can travel with a cov ops fleet however due to its mass not many can go through a bridge at once.
BFE
Shadow Flight
#349 - 2014-08-18 15:23:13 UTC  |  Edited by: BFE
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
So I am not sure how often the nestor is used for the hacking stuff. In my opinion a battleships is not really suited for that type of operation, nor do I know how effective the +10 Virus bonus is. I would recommend making all battleship classes focused onto Combat type usage, not utility like hacking. That being said I would look into removing the +10 virus thing and give it a Cap usage reductions for armor repairers or energy turrets. I would keep the scan probe bonus for its amazing combat usage.


Bullschmidt. In higher level class wormholes, you can't use your Astero or Stratios to kill the sleepers, then hack the sites... The Nestor is good for that. With the Nestor, you won't have to clear the site in a frig/cruiser, have a fleet mate warp to you to save the site while you warp back to get a hacking ship, warp back to site to hack, and again... warp back to your POS/exit to reap the rewards. It's a one-stop shop with the hacking bonus.
BFE
Shadow Flight
#350 - 2014-08-18 15:28:05 UTC
AtomYcX wrote:
Is Ship Maintenance Bay a typo for Fleet Hangar? A 5000m3 SMB makes no sense as you can't fit any ships in it (well, a single shuttle).



IMO, the Ship Maintenance Bay is fine.... it's just to be used to refit your own ship. However, it would be MUCH more useful with a 5k m3 Corp Hangar too, to actually keep modules in to BE refit.
BFE
Shadow Flight
#351 - 2014-08-18 15:39:39 UTC
XvXTeacherVxV wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We are giving the Nestor a 5000m3 Ship Maintenance Bay that will allow friendly ships to refit when they are nearby.


I get that this new ship bay is useful for refitting, but the space in the bay itself is pretty much worthless. I'd like to see this ship maintenance bay mean something more than "You can put a shuttle in it!" That's not giving players very interesting choices. What you put in this bay should matter, otherwise it's just flavor and a fitting service and this ship is already too much flavor and not enough function.

Make this Ship Maintenance Bay capable of launching a fighter and then add the following Nestor-only fighter-type ships.
- Explorer: Allows the Nestor to launch probes & scan without fitting a probe launcher and analyze without fitting an analyzer.
- Logistics: Can be sent to repair any ship in fleet and the same system.
- SOE Combat: The Gecko of fighters. Twice the bandwidth for twice the power, but squeezes into the SOE bay.

Those are interesting choices. Otherwise your choice is: Leopard or regular shuttle?




(And give it a damn jump drive already, it's crying out for one.)





+1
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#352 - 2014-08-18 16:14:05 UTC
BFE wrote:
AtomYcX wrote:
Is Ship Maintenance Bay a typo for Fleet Hangar? A 5000m3 SMB makes no sense as you can't fit any ships in it (well, a single shuttle).



IMO, the Ship Maintenance Bay is fine.... it's just to be used to refit your own ship. However, it would be MUCH more useful with a 5k m3 Corp Hangar too, to actually keep modules in to BE refit.


Still a fan of it getting a ship bay that can hold a single frigate.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#353 - 2014-08-18 17:15:42 UTC
BFE wrote:
Bullschmidt. In higher level class wormholes, you can't use your Astero or Stratios to kill the sleepers, then hack the sites... The Nestor is good for that. With the Nestor, you won't have to clear the site in a BS, have a fleet mate warp to you to save the site while you warp back to get a hacking ship, warp back to site to hack, and again... warp back to your POS/exit to reap the rewards. It's a one-stop shop with the hacking bonus.


So people actually using it for exploration in WHs?

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
TheMercenaryKing
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#354 - 2014-08-18 17:32:23 UTC
BFE wrote:
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
So I am not sure how often the nestor is used for the hacking stuff. In my opinion a battleships is not really suited for that type of operation, nor do I know how effective the +10 Virus bonus is. I would recommend making all battleship classes focused onto Combat type usage, not utility like hacking. That being said I would look into removing the +10 virus thing and give it a Cap usage reductions for armor repairers or energy turrets. I would keep the scan probe bonus for its amazing combat usage.


Bullschmidt. In higher level class wormholes, you can't use your Astero or Stratios to kill the sleepers, then hack the sites... The Nestor is good for that. With the Nestor, you won't have to clear the site in a BS, have a fleet mate warp to you to save the site while you warp back to get a hacking ship, warp back to site to hack, and again... warp back to your POS/exit to reap the rewards. It's a one-stop shop with the hacking bonus.


Thus the reason why I said "I am not sure" and "Nor do I know". I do not know how often it is used for the purpose and how effective it is, but if only 50 people are using it when it could be modified for 5000 people, I would take that modification in a heart beat.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#355 - 2014-08-18 18:26:05 UTC
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
BFE wrote:
TheMercenaryKing wrote:
So I am not sure how often the nestor is used for the hacking stuff. In my opinion a battleships is not really suited for that type of operation, nor do I know how effective the +10 Virus bonus is. I would recommend making all battleship classes focused onto Combat type usage, not utility like hacking. That being said I would look into removing the +10 virus thing and give it a Cap usage reductions for armor repairers or energy turrets. I would keep the scan probe bonus for its amazing combat usage.


Bullschmidt. In higher level class wormholes, you can't use your Astero or Stratios to kill the sleepers, then hack the sites... The Nestor is good for that. With the Nestor, you won't have to clear the site in a BS, have a fleet mate warp to you to save the site while you warp back to get a hacking ship, warp back to site to hack, and again... warp back to your POS/exit to reap the rewards. It's a one-stop shop with the hacking bonus.


Thus the reason why I said "I am not sure" and "Nor do I know". I do not know how often it is used for the purpose and how effective it is, but if only 50 people are using it when it could be modified for 5000 people, I would take that modification in a heart beat.



Except Rise stated more than once the hacking bonuses were freebie bonuses not part of the ships balance, and even if removed would not be replaced with anything.
Demotress
Systems High Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#356 - 2014-08-19 00:12:41 UTC
why not just turn it into something useful like a blops with some dps but pretty much like a logistics blops. maybe than people will use it and drop it with blops fleets.
Fortorn Lonshanks
Adeptus Incursio
#357 - 2014-08-19 11:13:14 UTC
Well that refitting bay is a welcome change. I would like to propose another change as well. Currently, this ship favors armor fleets almost exclusively.

Please make repair bonuses to shields and armor or introduce a new ship that mirrors the Nestor with shield repair bonuses.

What are/were the arguments against this type of change?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#358 - 2014-08-19 15:44:19 UTC
Fortorn Lonshanks wrote:
Well that refitting bay is a welcome change. I would like to propose another change as well. Currently, this ship favors armor fleets almost exclusively.

Please make repair bonuses to shields and armor or introduce a new ship that mirrors the Nestor with shield repair bonuses.

What are/were the arguments against this type of change?


A two for one RR ship would be too much.

Another ship for shield RR I can agree with.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#359 - 2014-08-20 11:04:01 UTC
Hey guys, after some more feedback from you guys we have a couple more additions to the changes to announce.

We're going to increase the sensor strength of the Nestor a bit to better reflect its role as a high-tech support vessel.

We're also going to be decreasing the mass of the ship quite a bit, down to 20m kg. This will help keep the Nestor balanced for use in highsec wars as it will be easier to bump away from the safety of stations, and has the added benefit of making the Nestor the first battleship that can jump into C1 wormholes. We'll be decreasing the base speed and inertia modifier at the same time, but the end result is that the Nestor will be a bit more agile and will be a bit faster than before with its prop mod running.

The new changes are:

Mass: 20,000,000 (-36,000,000)
Inertia: 0.5 (+0.32)
Velocity: 65 (-27)
Magnetometric Sensor Strength: 30 (+6)

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Conjaq
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#360 - 2014-08-20 11:08:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Conjaq
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys, after some more feedback from you guys we have a couple more additions to the changes to announce.

We're going to increase the sensor strength of the Nestor a bit to better reflect its role as a high-tech support vessel.

We're also going to be decreasing the mass of the ship quite a bit, down to 20m kg. This will help keep the Nestor balanced for use in highsec wars as it will be easier to bump away from the safety of stations, and has the added benefit of making the Nestor the first battleship that can jump into C1 wormholes. We'll be decreasing the base speed and inertia modifier at the same time, but the end result is that the Nestor will be a bit more agile and will be a bit faster than before with its prop mod running.

The new changes are:

Mass: 20,000,000 (-36,000,000)
Inertia: 0.5 (+0.32)
Velocity: 65 (-27)
Magnetometric Sensor Strength: 30 (+6)



While these changes are very interesting(And absolutely unique), i do not see what relevance they have in the usability of the ship itself.

It's still bad for wormholes, i can see the bling of flying the nestor, but it's still WAY more effective to use ships like a tengu.
350 mill ship, versus 1,5 billion... hmm


And high-sec wars, why even balance around that? .. Seriously.