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Smartbomb tiericide: all sizes should do the same damage
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Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#21 - 2014-08-15 21:20:29 UTC
Yeah doing this is begging for a bad time, increasing the damage ( Like someone mentioned already ) opens the door to destroy pipe bombs, Smartbomb suicide ganks in high sec on fleets of Skiff's or such as well as the out DPS / Out alpha'ing every other ship in its weight class.

Or imagine trying to do Small FW plexes with a catalyst sitting there that alpha's your worm with Smartbombs when you warp in, as much as i wouldnt mind being able to do that i still dont think its a balanced idea what so ever. At least not in this iteration of it

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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2014-08-16 01:16:28 UTC
Christopher Mabata wrote:
Yeah doing this is begging for a bad time, increasing the damage ( Like someone mentioned already ) opens the door to destroy pipe bombs, Smartbomb suicide ganks in high sec on fleets of Skiff's or such as well as the out DPS / Out alpha'ing every other ship in its weight class.

Or imagine trying to do Small FW plexes with a catalyst sitting there that alpha's your worm with Smartbombs when you warp in, as much as i wouldnt mind being able to do that i still dont think its a balanced idea what so ever. At least not in this iteration of it
Please provide an example that any of these things would be possible, as I have repeatedly provided examples that they are not. Yours and everyone else's claims against my proposal are unfounded and based on nothing more than rough opinion.

1.) it would take around ten smartbombing destroyers to gank a tanked Mackinaw in highsec, and that's assuming they can all get in range of the Mack without killing each other before CONCORD arrives -- I'm sure they could do it, but it would take some time to set up, so they'd probably only get someone who is either AFK or stubborn. Anyone who saw ten catalysts forming up around their barge would probably warp off.

2.) smartbombing destroyers or battlecruisers are potentially useful for mobile firewalls that can be moved into position faster than battleships, but they aren't used much at current because their low HP, low damage, and low range make then ineffective. Increasing only the damage to match battleship firewalls still leaves destroyer/BC firewalls far less effective as they have much less overlap capacity due to reduced range and HP.

3.) blaster catalyst can do much more DPS than 8 battleship smartbombs. Battleship smartbomb DPS (tech 2): 40 * 8 = 320

4.) it's only 2400 alpha max. It is certainly not enough to blap a Worm, which has 2584 EM EHP with no modules and no skills. You can easily bring a Worm to over 7500 EHP. But as I said earlier, the frigate smartbombs can have a faster rate of fire and lower damage to preserve the battleship smartbomb DPS but have lower alpha.

In short, it would still take too many destroyers to cause much grief for it to be a problem. There's a lot of reasons nobody uses smartbombs on destroyers, damage being only one of them.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Hemmo Paskiainen
#23 - 2014-08-16 08:40:03 UTC
Just simply bann smartbombs from high sec

If relativity equals time plus momentum, what equals relativity, if the momentum is minus to the time?
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#24 - 2014-08-16 08:49:18 UTC
Hemmo Paskiainen wrote:
Just simply bann smartbombs from high sec

it already warns you, and almost always gets you concorded, but why hardcode any more bans, especially ones not related to capitals?

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2014-08-16 16:09:41 UTC
Hemmo Paskiainen wrote:
Just simply bann smartbombs from high sec
If CCP had any desire to go that route, they would have disallowed combat in highsec. Clearly they don't have a problem with ganking.

Now as I have repeatedly shown and demonstrated, destroyers with battleship-damage smartbombs would not make overpowered gank ships. They might actually be decent with smartbombs, but the only thing they'd really kill very well would be frigates. It'd probably be a lot easier and more effective to just use turrets against a frigate, especially since you'd be hard-pressed to find two frigates close enough together for a destroyer to gank them, and then get close enough to them before they run away.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#26 - 2014-08-16 19:01:48 UTC
Why not just make smart bombs do the reverse for damage scaling
The smaller the more damage but less range
Have them all fall into the eh I have an open slot area rather than be a dedicated choice
CW Itovuo
The Executioners
#27 - 2014-08-16 19:26:45 UTC

Smartbombs could use some tweaking, in terms of Variants/DPS/Range/Fitting/Cap. Something to help w/ the current drone-meta.


Giving a small smartbomb the same DPS output as a large is not the right type of help.


Whatever you want the Smartbomb to be, the second point in the scale of balance is the Capsule.

Large smartbombs have a 300 DPS volly. Your average capsule has about 430 HP. There's a sort of balance in those numbers. A battleship dedicating it's utility spot to a SB, doesn't have the alpha to destroy a capsule. The only way it would work is by way of dedicated fit (giving up a gun) or by cooperation (fleet mate).

What you're suggesting would create massive imbalance/rage. A tackle frig which is already orbiting you at 500m would be guaranteed a pod kill if fit with two or more small smartbombs.


Getting podded is part of the game. But constant pod loss due to smartbombing tackling ships would not be a healthy change.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2014-08-16 19:45:42 UTC
CW Itovuo wrote:
What you're suggesting would create massive imbalance/rage. A tackle frig which is already orbiting you at 500m would be guaranteed a pod kill if fit with two or more small smartbombs.


Getting podded is part of the game. But constant pod loss due to smartbombing tackling ships would not be a healthy change.
Wow, first person to make a valid point. And I think this is definitely something important to think about.

I did say earlier the smartbombs could have the DPS of large with a faster cycle and smaller hit, but it wasn't until now that I actually felt it was an important distinction. That's an excellent point, and I will at the very least edit my original post to stress that the alpha of these things should be lower.

How do you feel about frig smartbombs matching battleship smartbombs in DPS, say if they had half the alpha or less?

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#29 - 2014-08-17 01:32:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Arya Regnar
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
4 cycles would take 30 seconds. CONCORD doesn't take that long to arrive. If they did, a 10 mil Catalyst could kill a Mackinaw in highsec.


#1 Smartbomb damage starts at the begining of cycle
#2 Skill reduces the duration by 25%
#3 Heating them reduces duration by another 15%
#4 Jamming does not affect smartbombs
#5 You can use cap boosters to get cap for another cycle after getting neuted by concord (correct me if I am wrong)

Duration is 6.38
2 cycles is 6.38 sec
3 cycles is 12.76 sec
4 cycles is 19.14

16.4 sec fror concord to start doing their business
You don't die instantly.

Maybe you cant get 4 cycles off but you can easily get 3 off and it is nowhere near 30 sec

Educate yourself before you try to tell someone how he is wrong.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
CW Itovuo
The Executioners
#30 - 2014-08-17 03:22:22 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:


How do you feel about frig smartbombs matching battleship smartbombs in DPS, say if they had half the alpha or less?



Against.



I view Smartbombs as a DEFENSIVE module.


The fact that they're used offensively to much greater effect is just one of those funny EVE quirks. I certainly don't want to remove that option, it always makes for good youtube videos. But I'm hesitant to lobby for improvements, as any defensive improvement just makes the offensive variant that much more potent.


Small modules should do small damage.

Small modules could use some love in terms of engagement range, so that they're more effective against Medium/Heavy drones which have larger orbit/engage range.


And activation costs need some serious attention, as small modules are grossly penalized.
Small SB -4 cap per second
Small MWD -3.75 cap per second

Medium SB -10 cap per second
Medium MWD -15 cap per second

Large SB -29 per second
Large MWD -59 per second








Anyway, I'm checking out of this thread, I've posted the B-word way too many times. Black van with an "Extradite Snowden" bumper sticker on it keeps driving by...


Someone say hello to Rancer for me !
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2014-08-17 05:24:31 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
Maybe you cant get 4 cycles off but you can easily get 3 off and it is nowhere near 30 sec
You're right, I was wrong. But a catalyst still wouldn't come anywhere near being able to gank a mackinaw. This just means it'll take less than ten of them.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#32 - 2014-08-17 14:04:42 UTC
Small gangs of smart bombing destroyers would sit off gates around low blapping pods, frigates, and stealth bombers all day long. It's already a thing with battleships, this might make it too cheap
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#33 - 2014-08-17 14:21:51 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Small gangs of smart bombing destroyers would sit off gates around low blapping pods, frigates, and stealth bombers all day long. It's already a thing with battleships, this might make it too cheap



That be my concern. Currently the best bang for the buck is disco BS'. So that 0.0 has to put some money out for the (cheesy) camp.

And cost prohibitive for low sec which really doesn't need the sleazy easy kill on frigates. Especially since frigates are the only valid real successful way to clear them. I'd like to keep it somewhat of a game. If I run low sec in a frigate, don't like what I am seeing on the gate, they have to want me more than than I want to gtfo out of there. Not the pvp they are looking for....but it is pvp none the less. My avoidance tactics versus their catching tactics....lets see whose is better. Vice having this and its open season with cheap throwaway disco frigs and dessies.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2014-08-17 17:18:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
But their range is a lot smaller. I don't know if you realize this, but a smartbombing destroyer has less than 20% of the stargate coverage that a battleship has. That is the bigger reason why they don't get used much. Having pathetically low damage just seals the deal, because that way, on the off chance something wanders in to their small radius, it's not going to take much of a hit before wandering out again.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Leafar Nightfall
Silent Owls
#35 - 2014-08-17 17:40:00 UTC
Some months ago I made a proposal to improve the DPS of the small smartbombs. I made some rough calculations and some balancing to make them viable as a weapon system of their on in the current scenario. Here's the thread if anyone wants to take a look:

http://eve-search.com/thread/311630-1
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2014-08-17 22:58:53 UTC
Looks like you're suggesting pretty close to what I'm suggesting. I kept some rather simple numbers, same DPS across all sizes and I was thinking (but didn't say here) to decrease the CPU cost from 30 to 20. Your final DPS was a little lower and your CPU cost a little higher. Might be more valid since you used much more in-depth comparisons.

In the end, I think the final balancing can be done by testing. But one thing is for sure, small smartbombs aren't getting used nearly enough, and it is clearly due to their horribly inferior stats.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Leafar Nightfall
Silent Owls
#37 - 2014-08-18 18:24:07 UTC
I made the number low on purpose. As you can see by the pros list the smartbombs have unique characteristics that make them superior in many ways to the other weapon systems. Although they have a fairly short range, it is bigger then blasters and there's no counter for its damage, while even against missile based systems you can lower your signature and boost your speed to avoid the full damage being applied.

I mean, the damage application on smartbombs is great, I'd dare say the best amongst all weapons systems. So any number that would look good as "paper DPS" would be OP. If you think about how consistently you can apply damage to multiple targets, 80dps almost sound like it is too much.

In any way, whatever the balancing method is, all the smaller sized smartbombs need some tweaking.
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