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Capital Mining Barge - Bahamut

First post
Author
Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2014-08-15 09:25:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugia3
Amy Utama wrote:
Komi Toran wrote:
Amy Utama wrote:
If by that you are mean it wont take someone a dozen or more accounts and a 200 man corp, to build stuff then these ships have bin obsolete for a very very long time

By that I mean every isoboxed mining alt will be trained into these monstrosities, collapsing the price of minerals even further and trivializing the amount of minerals all the size-limited high-sec miners can produce.

And as I only have a single account and make my billions of ISK building stuff while mining most of the minerals I need in a few hours time, your statement is wrong.

you may be right about the mulity boxers but the mass of this ship is conciderably larger thay the currently largest dockable ship Amarr Dread witch is 18,500,000 m3 this may fall into the not able to dock cadagory at 25,350,000 m3 as of yet CCP has not sait how much is the max allowable mass to be able to dock this may fall into the able to dock range and i would be happy with that


There is no max mass. Supers and Titans have a hidden checkbox that basically says "Unable to Dock". A binary function with everything else in the game having a "0", and supers having a "1".

Also, sure. If it's undockable I would support this. Even though it's a horrible idea, it's going to make things cheaper... and oh damn when I come across a supercapital sieged in an ice belt... Pirate



Amy Utama wrote:
Komi Toran wrote:
Basically obsoletes barges and exhumers. And everything else that's wrong with it. Not supported.


If by that you are mean it wont take someone a dozen or more accounts and a 200 man corp, to build stuff then these ships have bin obsolete for a very very long time


Nobody builds their own crap. People would buy them off the market instead of building them. Even a spacepoor pilot like myself can afford to buy multiple capital ships without a problem. Additionally, that is the exact same arguement ccp gave when implementing titans. The original titans, of the blap everything variety. A few years later titans are everywhere.

And there are a lot of 200 man corps.

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik

Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#22 - 2014-08-15 10:02:19 UTC
Amy Utama wrote:
Komi Toran wrote:
Basically obsoletes barges and exhumers. And everything else that's wrong with it. Not supported.


If by that you are mean it wont take someone a dozen or more accounts and a 200 man corp, to build stuff then these ships have bin obsolete for a very very long time

I have a better solution then: Ban ISBoxer.

No to op.

Remove standings and insurance.

Celthric Kanerian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2014-08-15 11:09:15 UTC
Amy Utama wrote:
Capital Mining Barge - Bahamut


I have put a very large amount of thought in to this to make it balanced and fair.

DO NOT POST HERE IF YOU HAVE NOT READ THE WHOLE POST.



That made me laugh.

So because you've put a "large amount of thought" into it makes it more special than other peoples ideas?
Velicitia
XS Tech
#24 - 2014-08-15 12:08:11 UTC
Amy Utama wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
*looks at OP*

Why?


My thoughts exactly.


Interesting I ask for input and help but i get one liners on "its op"

How it it op?
where is it op?
why do you think its op?
How can it be improved?


Looking at the Shah's post -- he's referring to the Original Post. Not saying that it's an overpowered idea (which it is).

It's overpowered, because one ship replaces all of the other ones -- i.e. it's the "Pre-Inferno* Hulk" 2.0.

*Or whichever patch initially rebalanced barges and exhumers.

Making mining more lucrative in low and null is a good goal, but the problem isn't that there isn't enough yield / minute for current barges, but that given the "mining playerbase", it has in general terms, a lower ratio of "players to pilots" than other activities, due to the ease of multi-boxing, and usefulness of tools like ISBoxer.

And, if you were to make it more lucrative through the addition of a ship like this, every nullsec miner would end up in one -- and absolutely crash the markets for compressed ores (and minerals, by proxy).

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#25 - 2014-08-15 12:34:31 UTC
Lets play my favorite game, unintended consequences.


  1. Obsoletes anything smaller for low/null mining
  2. Destroys the market for minerals on a practically producable scale
  3. makes mining interdiction much harder, as this looks like it would be able to get fairly good capital scale tank after refitting
  4. FAR easier to bot than a current barge due to the longer cycles, and massive buffer
  5. Collapses new player income, as many new players try mining for relatively safe income to start
  6. Collapses all high sec industry, as the new massive volume of minerals in low/null means even with poor distribution of some minerals, they are able to build most things without moving minerals to high
  7. Strains any logistics chain if they try to continue moving minerals or compressed ore to highsec to sell.
  8. Even higher bar to hold space, as large blocs will always be able to create and field more capitals than smaller corp and alliance sized powers.
  9. At a stroke, undoes the ice changes, as mining out an ice belt takes minutes for a single character who can laugh at most skirmishing subcap fleets while finishing their mining.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#26 - 2014-08-15 13:54:40 UTC
there is an absolute **** ton of minerals being created in the game today such that the margin on ship prices is very low and way more supers are being created than destroyed. Why do we need EVEN MOAR minerals in the game with ships already being replaced like plastic bottles?

if you want to make more money whilst mining, go attack other ppls miners!

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

beatlebutt
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2014-08-15 15:02:32 UTC
Well...hmm.. I always thought a capital miner would be cool also. Honestly I can't really wrap my head around if its balanced or not..but to all the haters..I can't see it taking over the mining market if something like that existed.

Why?

Be super easy to gank. As a capital its warp out would be so slow you would have know about the nuets 2 or 3 jumps away.

And it requires 95% cap to jump, so that leaves out emergency cyno's if you can't maintain 95% cap while mining.

Seems to me the rorqual could be given a mining role as part of its refit. As a miner with many hulks..I don't know I would use a cap even if it existed. It would be very expensive and possible easy to trap.

Hulks are slow to warp out as it is. Not too hard to catch one with an Inty.

I rather see some effort put into moon goo mining with ships in special belts. (that have to be scanned) Oh oh maybe that is what the capital miners could be for. Moon Goo belts.
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#28 - 2014-08-15 15:19:15 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Lets play my favorite game, unintended consequences.


  1. Obsoletes anything smaller for low/null mining
  2. Destroys the market for minerals on a practically producable scale
  3. makes mining interdiction much harder, as this looks like it would be able to get fairly good capital scale tank after refitting
  4. FAR easier to bot than a current barge due to the longer cycles, and massive buffer
  5. Collapses new player income, as many new players try mining for relatively safe income to start
  6. Collapses all high sec industry, as the new massive volume of minerals in low/null means even with poor distribution of some minerals, they are able to build most things without moving minerals to high
  7. Strains any logistics chain if they try to continue moving minerals or compressed ore to highsec to sell.
  8. Even higher bar to hold space, as large blocs will always be able to create and field more capitals than smaller corp and alliance sized powers.
  9. At a stroke, undoes the ice changes, as mining out an ice belt takes minutes for a single character who can laugh at most skirmishing subcap fleets while finishing their mining.
Hey, I like this game.

I would rather see a T2 Orca created around some minign drone yield and extended ore hold for hauling then a capital mining vessel. Other then that I believe the OP a bit beyond balancing or necessity.



Velicitia
XS Tech
#29 - 2014-08-15 15:44:24 UTC
beatlebutt wrote:
Well...hmm.. I always thought a capital miner would be cool also. Honestly I can't really wrap my head around if its balanced or not..but to all the haters..I can't see it taking over the mining market if something like that existed.

Why?

Be super easy to gank. As a capital its warp out would be so slow you would have know about the nuets 2 or 3 jumps away.


Hint -- if you only learn about the neuts 3 jumps out, your intel network is doing it wrong.

beatlebutt wrote:

And it requires 95% cap to jump, so that leaves out emergency cyno's if you can't maintain 95% cap while mining.


Cap chain from Guardians (or hell, Archons, because low/null).


Oh, and I just re-read the OP, and noticed this bit --

Quote:

This Capital Ship can fit a Industrial Jump Generator it allows non jump capable Mining ships to be moved in Bulk.

The Industrial Jump Generator has the same required skills as the Jump Portal Generator that the titan uses. It Functions different it expands the ships Jump Drive Field to bring other ships with it. only the following ships will be allowed to be carried:...


Hint -- a jump portal doesn't bring other ships with you. It allows you to send ships to a remote location (provided you have enough fuel to do so).

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#30 - 2014-08-15 15:46:59 UTC
Do we need to do a point by point Fisking of the idea? Cause so far, it's just a community shark attack against an idea that had a whelk's chance in a supernova.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Paynus Maiassus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2014-08-15 16:10:21 UTC
I do not support the concept of a capital miner. Update the Rorq instead. The Rorq is not useless, as others have implied here. Mine is the most useful cap I own currently. However, it could use some love. This capital mining ship is just a bad idea.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#32 - 2014-08-15 16:15:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
beatlebutt wrote:
Well...hmm.. I always thought a capital miner would be cool also. Honestly I can't really wrap my head around if its balanced or not..but to all the haters..I can't see it taking over the mining market if something like that existed.

Why?

Be super easy to gank. As a capital its warp out would be so slow you would have know about the nuets 2 or 3 jumps away.

And it requires 95% cap to jump, so that leaves out emergency cyno's if you can't maintain 95% cap while mining.

Seems to me the rorqual could be given a mining role as part of its refit. As a miner with many hulks..I don't know I would use a cap even if it existed. It would be very expensive and possible easy to trap.

Hulks are slow to warp out as it is. Not too hard to catch one with an Inty.

I rather see some effort put into moon goo mining with ships in special belts. (that have to be scanned) Oh oh maybe that is what the capital miners could be for. Moon Goo belts.


most carrier ratters seem to be caught through sheer negligence. With a coalition sized intel network and choke points, seeing bad guys coming from a few jumps away will likely not be an issue. if a hulk was caught by an inty, he more than likely wasnt paying attention or was mining close to a gate with no scouts. Not exactly hard to mitigate when your flying something more expensive.

there are more ways of getting 95% cap than i can be bothered to write, but you can get 0-80% instantly with 6 cap boosters.

missed that zero

James Baboli wrote:
Do we need to do a point by point Fisking of the idea? Cause so far, it's just a community shark attack against an idea that had a whelk's chance in a supernova.


apparently so because some ppl ^^ still arent getting it

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Velicitia
XS Tech
#33 - 2014-08-15 16:22:06 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Do we need to do a point by point Fisking of the idea? Cause so far, it's just a community shark attack against an idea that had a whelk's chance in a supernova.



slow F&I day. Blink

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Velicitia
XS Tech
#34 - 2014-08-15 16:23:34 UTC
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
I do not support the concept of a capital miner. Update the Rorq instead. The Rorq is not useless, as others have implied here. Mine is the most useful cap I own currently. However, it could use some love. This capital mining ship is just a bad idea.


This -- I loved my rorq.

Then ended up back in hisec (because I'm bad at eve), so sold it...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#35 - 2014-08-15 16:36:53 UTC
Amy Utama wrote:
Capital Mining Barge - Bahamut


I have put a very large amount of thought in to this to make it balanced and fair.

DO NOT POST HERE IF YOU HAVE NOT READ THE WHOLE POST.

Oh, you special snowflake. Banning TL;DR on something of this bloated scale, without let or hindrance [/quote]
Amy Utama wrote:

Slots 6 high / 6 Med / 6 low
Structure hp: 125,000
Resists: EM: 0% / Thermal: 0% / Kinetic: 0% / Explosive: 0%
Armor hp: 100,000
Resists: EM: 50% / Thermal: 45% / Kinetic: 25% / Explosive: 10%
Shield hp: 150,000
Resists: EM: 0% / Thermal: 20% / Kinetic: 40% / Explosive: 50%

A 6/6/6 capital ship, with a base pool of EHP in the low to mid million range, and the possibility to entirely brick the shields, on something designed for PVE..... I can't think of a single reason not to break it for combat at this point.
Amy Utama wrote:

Capacity: 25,000 - Cannot hole ore or minerals

A normal hold which cannot be used for normal materials? why not? makes life interesting, but curious to see on a capital industrial.

Amy Utama wrote:

Drone bay: 300 m3
Combat Drone bandwidth: 125 Mbit/s

So, a full flight of sentries, on a ship with the ability to pack the lows with DDAs, and the highs with DLAs. Must be a nice turret. Again, this looks nothing like a PvE ship.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#36 - 2014-08-15 16:44:34 UTC
Amy Utama wrote:

Drone bay: 300 m3
Combat Drone bandwidth: 125 Mbit/s

So, a full flight of sentries, on a ship with the ability to pack the lows with DDAs, and the highs with DLAs. Must be a nice turret. Again, this looks nothing like a PvE ship.

Amy Utama wrote:

Mass: 1,430,000,000 kg
Volume: 25,350,000.0 m3 (2,500,000,0 m3 Packaged)
Inertia Modifier:0.04 x

So a base time to warp speed of 79 seconds? sure. First reasonable thing about this post.
Amy Utama wrote:

Ore Hold Capacity: 1,000,000 m3


Nope. Just nope. Million m3 is too high for anything but a frieghter.

Amy Utama wrote:

Capacitor Capacity: 65,000
Capacitor Recharge time: 5,000 s

13 cap/s before skills or fits? I can't think of any problems with that. now, lets increase both to full and see what happens, oh look, 21.66 cap/s. About normal for a battleship. Wheres the large numbers like most capitals have now?
Amy Utama wrote:

Targeting:
Maximum Targeting Range: 125 km
Maximum Targets Locked: 5
Signature Radius: 6,000 m
Scan Resolution (non asteroid): 40 mm
Scan Resolution (asteroid): 1200 mm
Sensor Strength (Magnetometric): 120

Hmm. Grid breaking lock range. Not a problem per se, but something to be aware of.
Now, a scan resolution against only one type of thing. Requires some fun special case coding, and more dev time tied up. How about a more reasonable scan res as a base, and none of this "instalock any roid EVAR" stuff.
And WOW that sensor strength. Unjammable RR anyone?

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#37 - 2014-08-15 16:50:19 UTC
It is glaringly obvious the OP has never played with capitals before.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#38 - 2014-08-15 16:53:22 UTC
Amy Utama wrote:

Fleet Hanger Capacity: 40,000

Okay, so less than an orca. Seems fair enough, especially with the large ore hold. And hey, something that isn't a special case, usable only by this one ship.
Amy Utama wrote:

Jump Dive Systems
Jump Drive Capacitor Need: 95% (can’t be reduced in any way)

And we're back to single special case programming.
Amy Utama wrote:

Maximum Jump Range: 4 ly
Jump Drive Fuel Need: Oxygen Isotopes
Jump Drive Consumption Amount: 2,000 units

So it costs more fuel to jump than a titan.... cool.
Amy Utama wrote:

Fuel Bay Capacity: 20,000 m3

and has a fuel bay large enough to fuel a tower out of. Makes sense, I guess.
Amy Utama wrote:

Maximum Velocity: 55 m/sec
Ship Warp Speed: 1.25 AU/S

So, it warps slower than titans. Makes no sense given the size of the ship and so on.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Amy Utama
State War Academy
Caldari State
#39 - 2014-08-15 17:03:32 UTC
Thanks for the support guys made edits this is a WiP and but I still wanna see a Capital mining barge yes it is slower then a titan but there needs to be Cons to combat Pros Large Ore bay - moves slower
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#40 - 2014-08-15 17:04:11 UTC
Amy Utama wrote:

You have noticed this ship had no Ship Maintenance Bay or Fitting service

And I may not have. On something like this, it already has enough of an advantage just as a inobvious PVP platform.
Amy Utama wrote:

This Capital Ship can fit a Industrial Jump Generator it allows non jump capable Mining ships to be moved in Bulk.

The Industrial Jump Generator has the same required skills as the Jump Portal Generator that the titan uses. It Functions different it expands the ships Jump Drive Field to bring other ships with it. only the following ships will be allowed to be carried:
Orca
Hulk
Covetor
Mackinaw
Retriever
Skiff
Procurer
Prospect
Venture


So, do they all get sucked off with you, or do you create a jump bridge?
If they all get sucked with you, then it becomes an easy way to jump one in and kidnap an entire hostile mining fleet.
Also, allowing it to move an orca means you just circumvented the "no fitting service" you listed as a balancing measure.
Grats.
If its a jump portal generator, why duplicate the functionality?
Amy Utama wrote:

Industrial Jump Generator
Activation Cost: 1000 GJ
Fuel Consumption: 1000 Strontium Clathrates
Duration: 60 s

So, a worse jump portal generator, without the disallows assistance flag, or using your jump fuel.... I totally can't think of any way to break this, with a battle venture fleet consisting of the entire CFC or something.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp