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Siphon Units = Useless

First post
Author
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#21 - 2014-08-14 07:44:53 UTC
In general nothing is an exploit until CCP says it is.

But once they do, you'd best listen. Claiming ignorance or continuing to use it because you think you can't get caught is a ban wave waiting to happen.

Just sayin'

Mr Epeen Cool
Derrick Miles
Death Rabbit Ky Oneida
#22 - 2014-08-14 07:47:17 UTC
Chribba wrote:
It's pretty similar to being able to see the notification mail when someone attacks your POS through the API - clearly an exploit knowing when you're being attacked...?

Or worse, you see the killmail of your structures. You know someone is there shooting up your stuff.

/c

The difference is there's no notification for the Siphon Units and there isn't supposed to be one. It's not like pulling the numbers from the API and doing the math is an automatic thing that just pops up in front of you and you can't help but look at it. If that's what was being done, without telling CCP about it, then it was an exploit.
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#23 - 2014-08-14 08:26:54 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
In general nothing is an exploit until CCP says it is.

But once they do, you'd best listen. Claiming ignorance or continuing to use it because you think you can't get caught is a ban wave waiting to happen.

Just sayin'

Mr Epeen Cool

Significant retroactive action has been taken in the past, where some unintended game mechanic has been used to gain advantage, when CCP became aware of the issue and declared the Exploit.

The definition of an Exploit means that there are some clear examples which you shouldn't touch with a barge pole even if CCP haven't yet declared it (or aren't aware of it); any form of dupe should be avoided, penalties which become bonuses and bonuses which apply when they shouldn't are also clear candidates.
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#24 - 2014-08-14 08:41:56 UTC
Well people said from the beginning that siphons don't do much and some times I hate being right, though my reasons was that I couldn't be arsed to baby sit a one.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2014-08-14 08:53:58 UTC
Baneken wrote:
Well people said from the beginning that siphons don't do much and some times I hate being right, though my reasons was that I couldn't be arsed to baby sit a one.

There are other reasons for siphons not being all that great. They can be spoofed, for one.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

jullll
SnaiLs aNd FroGs
Toilet Paper.
#26 - 2014-08-14 09:06:47 UTC
Confirming Siphon Units is broken, too expensive, too easy to detect.
Make it way cheaper, problem solved.

I love the idea of mobiles to annoy holders/citizens in 0.0 though.
It should definitely go on that direction: defend and live on your territory or loose it.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#27 - 2014-08-14 09:08:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
jullll wrote:

It should definitely go on that direction: defend and live on your territory or loose it.


Conversely, one could argue that people like you should have to attack and take that territory. Instead of just anklebiting with poorly designed deployables.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
#28 - 2014-08-14 09:11:45 UTC
Derrick Miles wrote:
Chribba wrote:
It's pretty similar to being able to see the notification mail when someone attacks your POS through the API - clearly an exploit knowing when you're being attacked...?

Or worse, you see the killmail of your structures. You know someone is there shooting up your stuff.

/c

The difference is there's no notification for the Siphon Units and there isn't supposed to be one. It's not like pulling the numbers from the API and doing the math is an automatic thing that just pops up in front of you and you can't help but look at it. If that's what was being done, without telling CCP about it, then it was an exploit.

Very true in that sense, with that view however, lots of things concerning the API could be considered an exploit though.

For example, member lists of corporations have never been available to people outside the corp, yet through the API you can find most if not all members of a corporation. Exploit.

Sure I can agree that the intended feature of the Siphon's stealthyness isn't a yay thing, but at the same time I would see the API's ability to detect one the outcome of smart player engineering. Because after all, you have to judge yoruself that the reduced number of goo units in your silo is due to a Siphon. Similar how you could see a killmail and judge what type of weapons a pilot may be fitting if you see the kill being made 5 min ago.

But I understand both sides for sure.

/c

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#29 - 2014-08-14 09:14:05 UTC
So what the OP is saying is that CCP actually realised that what people were telling them was true: that it's a pretty bad idea to have the API report false information.
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#30 - 2014-08-14 09:19:06 UTC
Chribba wrote:
It's pretty similar to being able to see the notification mail when someone attacks your POS through the API - clearly an exploit knowing when you're being attacked...?

Or worse, you see the killmail of your structures. You know someone is there shooting up your stuff.

/c

Yeah but one is intended by CCP (the notification mail) while the other is not.

I really don't see why people are having a tough time grasping this: something unintended (in fact the exact opposite of the intended behavior) that gives you an advantage is, by definition, not "working as intended".
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#31 - 2014-08-14 09:21:43 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Chribba wrote:
It's pretty similar to being able to see the notification mail when someone attacks your POS through the API - clearly an exploit knowing when you're being attacked...?

Or worse, you see the killmail of your structures. You know someone is there shooting up your stuff.

/c

Yeah but one is intended by CCP (the notification mail) while the other is not.

I really don't see why people are having a tough time grasping this: something unintended (in fact the exact opposite of the intended behavior) that gives you an advantage is, by definition, not "working as intended".


The API is still working as intended.

The Siphon isn't. And it was a stupid idea in the first place.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#32 - 2014-08-14 09:30:17 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

And it was a stupid idea in the first place.

Yeah, no. That's an opinion, one that many will disagree with. Judging by the amount of people I've seen b*tching about siphons, organizations (such as PL) paying bounties for dead siphons (Last I heard they paid their renters ~10 mil per dead siphon), and the plethora of alliances that use said siphons, I'd say they're pretty cool.

They could stand to be smaller and cheaper though. All the cost does is make the barrier to entry higher for newbies.
Derrick Miles
Death Rabbit Ky Oneida
#33 - 2014-08-14 09:40:25 UTC
Chribba wrote:

Very true in that sense, with that view however, lots of things concerning the API could be considered an exploit though.

For example, member lists of corporations have never been available to people outside the corp, yet through the API you can find most if not all members of a corporation. Exploit.

Sure I can agree that the intended feature of the Siphon's stealthyness isn't a yay thing, but at the same time I would see the API's ability to detect one the outcome of smart player engineering. Because after all, you have to judge yoruself that the reduced number of goo units in your silo is due to a Siphon. Similar how you could see a killmail and judge what type of weapons a pilot may be fitting if you see the kill being made 5 min ago.

But I understand both sides for sure.

/c

You've definitely got a good point about smart player engineering. There are a lot of ways to use the API to gain an advantage over other players in Eve, although I wouldn't go so far as to call them exploits as well. The only thing I can't get past is that CCP specifically said that the API was supposed to hide the Siphon Unit's activity so when it showed up instead, it was clearly broken since it went directly against what CCP said it was supposed to do. At that point is when it passes into the realm of exploiting: taking advantage of a broken feature for personal gain.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2014-08-14 09:56:57 UTC
By definition.. CCP said it woudl work one way and it doe snot.. then its a bug. Report it as a bug.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#35 - 2014-08-14 10:02:08 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
By definition.. CCP said it woudl work one way and it doe snot.. then its a bug. Report it as a bug.

Just one problem: they said it would work in a certain way in a thread asking for critique and suggestions, after which they redesigned some of the functionality. So pretty much everything they said is subject to having been changed before it went live.

The piece of (non)functionality complained about here isn't in the patch notes, for instance…
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2014-08-14 10:16:45 UTC
well:

a) tbh, if it's exploit or not, all I can see is *semantics*

b) if the API isn't lying about it, then it's a bug from CCP

d) THE API IS (NOT) A LIE!

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Valleria Darkmoon
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#37 - 2014-08-14 10:29:41 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Regardless of the above, still not an exploit to look at your own API data.
I mean what options would we have to avoid it if it were an exploit? Refuse to look at our API data? Unreasonable. Pretend we didn't see it? Unreasonable.

As much as null blocs don't need that extra money I do have to agree here. Even if it is an exploit, it's one you can't really hold against them because finding it unintentionally still leaves you in a position where you can't un-ring the bell. This is not like finding an obscure exploitable ship fitting or combination for instance and then just refusing to use it since there are so many other things you can still use legitimately. Your options here are kill the siphon unit (a mechanic allowed by the game) or let it steal from you forever. This issue can not be summed up so simply as "people exploited = severe punishment now", this issue is not so black and white and is why I use my current signature.

If you are checking something in API and happen to notice the siphon unit, it's pretty much impossible to pretend you didn't see it and the only way to follow through with pretending you didn't see it would be to let is steal from you indefinitely and if they did pretend not to see it, would they be justified in asking for reimbursement for not taking out the siphon unit? I think a fair minded person would have to say yes.

While there may be some concern as to how long this was known before it was brought forward only CCP knows for sure if and when a report was filed about the issue. If it can be shown that some people have known about the issue for some time and kept it to themselves, then some form of punishment is probably in order but I suspect this could not be definitively proven. Because siphon units can be found and destroyed legitimately it seems it would be very difficult to distinguish between siphon units found legitimately and those that were tipped off by API info. If you think it can be done please share.

While I suspect there are probably some who have been less then forthcoming with this info, I think you'll just have to swallow this one and GRR [insert alliance/coalition name here] will have to wait for another day.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.

Mithandra
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#38 - 2014-08-14 10:29:42 UTC
if an item is meant to be undetectable in game, yet is able to be detected using an api out of game, then that's a bug surely... or am I missing something?


Eve is the dark haired, totally hot emo gothchild of the gaming community

Shederov Blood
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
#39 - 2014-08-14 10:30:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Shederov Blood
Grimpak wrote:
well:

a) tbh, if it's exploit or not, all I can see is *semantics*

b) if the API isn't lying about it, then it's a bug from CCP

d) THE API IS (NOT) A LIE!
e) What happened to c) ?

Who put the goat in there?

Grainsalt
Independent'R'Us
#40 - 2014-08-14 10:32:32 UTC
Shederov Blood wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
well:

a) tbh, if it's exploit or not, all I can see is *semantics*

b) if the API isn't lying about it, then it's a bug from CCP

d) THE API IS (NOT) A LIE!
e) What happened to c) ?


Using c) may be an exploit.