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Drone Ships, and my hating of them

First post
Author
Phaade
Proioxis Assault Force
Rogue Caldari Union
#1 - 2014-08-13 16:19:38 UTC
Many will consider this a rant. I do not. I consider it reason, rationality, and sense.

Drone ships need to be massively nerfed almost across the board, particularly most Gallente. I am not sure why CCP favors Gallente by giving them the most powerful ships (generally speaking), but alas, they do.

Back when drone damage mods did not exist, it sort of made sense that Gallente ships needed drone damage bonuses and weapon damage bonuses. Well, it was still a bit too powerful back then, but now it's just absurd.

Then CCP, in their infinite wisdom, goes and give Gallente another boon: the Gecko. Yes, the Gecko that volleys frigates from the field, deals omni damage, tracks and moves quickly, all while having giant EHP. "oh but there are a limited number of them!" So what, they are still utterly broken and their introduction to the game was poorly thought out and entirely brainless. Please give me a special form of missile that deals omni damage, perfectly applies that damage, and hits stupidly hard; like volleying frigates with one cycle. Enough damage that an X-LASB can't tank it for more than 4-5 cycles. Of course, this would never happen. Yet the Gecko exists. Reasons!

Gecko's aside, drone damage ships deal far too much damage for their utility. They have an incredible weapon system that covers small, medium, and large threats and can swap at will. They can infinitely kite without worrying about their positioning, other than being in point range if solo. This weapon system is impossible to get underneath, so even tackling a "kite" drone ship is irrelevant. It only puts you in range of their blasters, or neuts. I don't need to tell you how brutal blasters are at close ranges. So they have the highest dps short range weapons, usually with bonuses, while also having the most versatile weapon system (drones) bonused, granting them immunity to kiting, TD's, neuts, ETC. That sure is a recipe for balance. Right now fighting a drone ships is incredibly difficult; like a watermelon vs. Gallagher's hammer. You just explode.

Perhaps it's because Gallente Militia are, and have been, in tier 4 for quite some time now. Why even bring out a regular Vexor? The most powerful tech one cruiser is now just a smidge less expensive than the, VNI. The good ol' Vexor Navy Issue is everywhere these days, and it really highlights just how overpowered drone ships have become. So you get a capless, high damage, high tracking and speed weapon that is immune to neuts, tracking disruption, and kiting. Because REASONS.

Caracal Navy Issue you say? I laugh in your face. At least the Nomen is great at kiting, better even than the zealot of old. The stabber is quite good for it's speed. The Navy Caracal is hilariously bad. But it's Caldari, and many Caldari ships have been bad for a long, long time. They are the forgotten bastard children. Except the condor, which is actually a decent ship.

So, where do we go from here? Well, you would have to replace the drone system with a system that makes sense. That has it's particular weapon size, you know, like every other weapon system in the game. I don't get to swap from large to small turrets on a whim here. I'm tired of VNI's / ishtars / (vexors sort of) dropping sentries, heavies, mediums, or lights, to deal with literally any threat you can toss them. They need to specialize in only one size (medium) of drone, not have this weird ability to just kill everything. In fact, if you removed all hi slots off each drone ships (to compensate for their drone bays being HUGE), they would still be VERY formidable combat ships. I know, it's like this weird thing called balance. Trade-offs and things.

I suppose it's just disheartening when you get dumped all over by a Gallente drone cruiser, even when you have a couple cruisers with a few frigs. And there is nothing you can do about it because.....reasons.

In classic Eve fashion I expect responses like: "Show me on this doll were the VNI touched you" and various other responses involving my assumed impotence.

Engage.
Cyniac
Twilight Star Rangers
#2 - 2014-08-13 16:27:29 UTC
How about you go on a campaign to kill the geckos? Ships can be replaced but Geckos are a finite resource. Go kill them and laugh in the face of whoever sent out the Geckos after you.

I am sure someone can come up with a cheap-o gecko-killer frigate or dessy. Could be kinda fun.

Though as a Gallente drone pilot since 2009 I have to admit. There is a smirk on my face.
Delucian
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3 - 2014-08-13 16:43:25 UTC
Old Viking saying, "If you can't lift yon sword, grow stronger."
Airto TLA
Acorn's Wonder Bars
#4 - 2014-08-13 16:46:27 UTC
Amusingly., I remember stating in a thread that over buffing DDA as they were being introduced was a danger since there were Drone ships were already pretty good (Domi and Ishtar) and that there was the potential to turn carriers into monsters, since the could rep and pour out dps.

I was told I was nuts and that anyone who used carriers for anything but logistics was a moron.

I guess moron hold sovereignty in null sec. And Istars are not getting a nerf soon.
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#5 - 2014-08-13 18:07:48 UTC
What drone ships need is a slot and stat reduction.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide

Tra'dane T'Kal
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2014-08-13 19:19:57 UTC
The VNI has a pityful drone bay. How about killing its drones?

Also omnidamage is usually considered a DISadvantage. Unless fighting solely vs. Gnosei there is always a resistance hole, no matter how small.
Django Askulf
Best Kept Dunked
#7 - 2014-08-13 20:53:00 UTC
Phaade wrote:
I am not sure why CCP favors Gallente by giving them the most powerful ships (generally speaking), but alas, they do.

But it's Caldari, and many Caldari ships have been bad for a long, long time. They are the forgotten bastard children. Except the condor, which is actually a decent ship.

Engage.


Used to be the other way around, and I wouldnt even say your assessment is correct, but I suppose people will always find something to whine about. Protip: When you kill the drones, you remove the DPS.
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#8 - 2014-08-13 20:58:32 UTC
Tra'dane T'Kal wrote:
The VNI has a pityful drone bay. How about killing its drones?

Also omnidamage is usually considered a DISadvantage. Unless fighting solely vs. Gnosei there is always a resistance hole, no matter how small.

Unless you know your enemy left his resist hole unpatched, there's no way omnidamage is a disadvantage.

Atomeon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2014-08-13 21:17:13 UTC
I( never have seen your Missiles launcher to be destroyed by my weapons, but i have seen my Weapon (drones) dieing and therefore no damage output by me.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#10 - 2014-08-13 22:54:10 UTC
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Tra'dane T'Kal wrote:
The VNI has a pityful drone bay. How about killing its drones?

Also omnidamage is usually considered a DISadvantage. Unless fighting solely vs. Gnosei there is always a resistance hole, no matter how small.

Unless you know your enemy left his resist hole unpatched, there's no way omnidamage is a disadvantage.


Sure there is. If you're fighting T2 ships, they're going to have a couple of resists that are still higher than the others even after they've plugged their resist hole. For example, using EM damage against a Minmatar T2 ship is a giant waste of time, and gecko loses damage versus things that don't do EM as a result.
Liam Inkuras
dead.Orbit
#11 - 2014-08-13 23:00:44 UTC
Geckos are primary more often than ships I find.

I wear my goggles at night.

Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone

IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#12 - 2014-08-13 23:09:38 UTC
Atomeon wrote:
I( never have seen your Missiles launcher to be destroyed by my weapons, but i have seen my Weapon (drones) dieing and therefore no damage output by me.


This^

It's not rocket science. Kill the thing that's doing you damage... Once that's done kill the ship.
Christopher Mabata
Sentinel Incorporium
#13 - 2014-08-13 23:32:46 UTC
Drone ships are fine in my opinion, sure the ishtar is currently tweaked out on crack and rampaging through the streets but other than that its pretty balanced, most drones boats have tiny drone space ( especially with Gecko's on the flight deck ) and so killing their drones completely removes most of their DPS. If you hate drone boats that badly, either kill their drones or dont fight them its simple as that.

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Zero Sum Gain
FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOOOOOOOOM
#14 - 2014-08-14 00:29:24 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Tra'dane T'Kal wrote:
The VNI has a pityful drone bay. How about killing its drones?

Also omnidamage is usually considered a DISadvantage. Unless fighting solely vs. Gnosei there is always a resistance hole, no matter how small.

Unless you know your enemy left his resist hole unpatched, there's no way omnidamage is a disadvantage.


Sure there is. If you're fighting T2 ships, they're going to have a couple of resists that are still higher than the others even after they've plugged their resist hole. For example, using EM damage against a Minmatar T2 ship is a giant waste of time, and gecko loses damage versus things that don't do EM as a result.


But it also does more damage than something with only EM. Omni is not the worst and its not the best.
Marcuis
Shadowed Command
Tactical Narcotics Team
#15 - 2014-08-14 00:31:52 UTC
I dont know whats wrong with you.! .. Drones boats are perfectly okay and dont need a change, its simple to be honest learn to over come the drone boats and counter them with better tactics other then whine about it..same is said about ECM.. in the game so learn to adjust

[URL=http://s284.photobucket.com/user/Zuminor/media/marcsigcopy-13.gif.html][IMG]http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll34/Zuminor/marcsigcopy-13.gif[/IMG][/URL]

Phaade
Proioxis Assault Force
Rogue Caldari Union
#16 - 2014-08-14 15:26:26 UTC
Django Askulf wrote:
Phaade wrote:
I am not sure why CCP favors Gallente by giving them the most powerful ships (generally speaking), but alas, they do.

But it's Caldari, and many Caldari ships have been bad for a long, long time. They are the forgotten bastard children. Except the condor, which is actually a decent ship.

Engage.


Used to be the other way around, and I wouldnt even say your assessment is correct, but I suppose people will always find something to whine about. Protip: When you kill the drones, you remove the DPS.


The other way around?

Since I have been playing, Gallente have had superior ships to Caldari, generally speaking. Minmatar had some beasts as well.

I have been playing since 2007, so.... that's quite some time now.

And I can lift my sword. Unfortunately, Caldari swords are wooden sticks.

Phaade
Proioxis Assault Force
Rogue Caldari Union
#17 - 2014-08-14 15:29:34 UTC
Atomeon wrote:
I( never have seen your Missiles launcher to be destroyed by my weapons, but i have seen my Weapon (drones) dieing and therefore no damage output by me.



Might be beneficial to me actually, to have people target my missile launchers instead of my ship.

Then when a launcher dies I simply re-apply another one. My effective HP has increased substantially while the target dies.

That argument applies only to non drone based ships (in certain situations) and sentries in Null that can be bombed. It is almost never a factor in an actual fight.

Thus, it is a stupid argument for balance.
Phaade
Proioxis Assault Force
Rogue Caldari Union
#18 - 2014-08-14 15:36:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Phaade
Marcuis wrote:
I dont know whats wrong with you.! .. Drones boats are perfectly okay and dont need a change, its simple to be honest learn to over come the drone boats and counter them with better tactics other then whine about it..same is said about ECM.. in the game so learn to adjust



What kind of mindless drivel is this?

What tactics counter drones and guns, other than mindlessly attempting to kill drones (which you require a web to do, so your target can escape)?

Explain to me why the Tristan, Vexor, VNI, Myrmidon, Dominix are some of the best ships in their class, and generally hit a class up?

Tristan kills AF's and faction frigates quite well, Vexor kills all other t1 cruisers and some BC's well, triple rep Myrmidon? Good lord.

Sure, other ships certainly specialize in various areas, but generally speaking, these are the best most versatile ships in the game.

Then there's the Ishtar.
Jon Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2014-08-14 15:56:28 UTC
To be fair, simply killing the drones is not always very easy, as any competent pilot is going to be paying close attention to their drones and swap them out as they start taking damage. And the whole time you're focusing on drones is just more time that the opponent isn't dying and probably has friends on the way.

Not that I completely agree with the OP, but I do find a number of drone boats (mostly Gallente) are out of whack.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#20 - 2014-08-14 16:37:35 UTC
The fundamental problem is really with giving non-battleships the 125m3 bandwidth. With the travel time of drones, having "battleship size" weapons on a cruiser isn't a big issue normally...but then you look at a 1v1 situation where travel time no longer matters and the cruisers fielding heavy drones are suddenly doing nearly BS damage levels with cruiser sig and speed.

However, if you reduce the drone bandwidth without heavily buffing the drone damage (like the guristas ships) you'd wind up with rather pitiful real damage after accounting for travel times, drones getting lost, etc.

The Dominix really isn't that bad. Caps out at <800 dps from sentry drones without faction mods, and that's not unreasonable when you compare to other damage-bonused T1 battleships.
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