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[CSM] December Summit - New Player Experience

First post
Author
Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2011-11-23 16:26:45 UTC
Please discuss issues related to this session in this thread. We look forward to your comments and suggestions.

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery

Gempei
Marvinovi pratele
#2 - 2011-11-24 10:14:24 UTC
Bomberlocks
Bombercorp
#3 - 2011-11-25 01:32:29 UTC
The biggest hurdle to new players is that realistic pvp only starts when players have enough skills to fit and properly use t2 mods and can afford to replace their losses. This is why so many get stuck in hisec; they never get to experience PVP at the beginning of their eve career. I don't know what the solution could be; hisec pvp arenas for players under a certain skill limit possibly, but something needs to be done.
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
#4 - 2011-11-25 05:04:53 UTC
The new player experience is alright, but it needs to be polished a bit.
I've created an alt and run through the tutorials for each race post-Incrana, and there are little bugs that can really throw someone, like when a skillbook is supposed to be given to them, but doesn't show up.
The text on some of the tutorials is a bit truncated in content, as it will say "you need [module] to do [action]" and not elude to the fact that when you click "next" the tutorial will give you one. This can leave the user looking in their hangar for an item they haven't been given yet, wondering if the tutorial is broken, etc.

A "newbie gauntlet" needs to be set up to satisfy a couple issues.
Newbies need to know what it's like to get their little newbie ship obliterated by a T2 Gank-fit. Get them used to what Eve is really like.
In the gauntlet system, remove concord. Keep sec status dings, but make it a blood bath.
Set the newbies clone at a station at the end of the gauntlet, so if they get podded, they are still done with the tutorial.
Newbies have to get through the gauntlet to get to the career agents.


[newbie star system 1.0]--->[gauntlet system 0.0, hot drops, etc.]--->[career agent sytem 0.9/1.0]

Probably to much of that scary "work" word for CCP to actually implement, but if they are going to run a PvP centric game, then they should make sure that newbies get a taste of what life is like in Eve before they even get settled on anything else.

Profit favors the prepared

Tahna Rouspel
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2011-11-25 05:18:05 UTC
Evei Shard wrote:
The new player experience is alright, but it needs to be polished a bit.
I've created an alt and run through the tutorials for each race post-Incrana, and there are little bugs that can really throw someone, like when a skillbook is supposed to be given to them, but doesn't show up.
The text on some of the tutorials is a bit truncated in content, as it will say "you need [module] to do [action]" and not elude to the fact that when you click "next" the tutorial will give you one. This can leave the user looking in their hangar for an item they haven't been given yet, wondering if the tutorial is broken, etc.

A "newbie gauntlet" needs to be set up to satisfy a couple issues.
Newbies need to know what it's like to get their little newbie ship obliterated by a T2 Gank-fit. Get them used to what Eve is really like.
In the gauntlet system, remove concord. Keep sec status dings, but make it a blood bath.
Set the newbies clone at a station at the end of the gauntlet, so if they get podded, they are still done with the tutorial.
Newbies have to get through the gauntlet to get to the career agents.


[newbie star system 1.0]--->[gauntlet system 0.0, hot drops, etc.]--->[career agent sytem 0.9/1.0]

Probably to much of that scary "work" word for CCP to actually implement, but if they are going to run a PvP centric game, then they should make sure that newbies get a taste of what life is like in Eve before they even get settled on anything else.


That sounds maybe a little too harsh.

When I think back to my first day, I remember just how confused I was.
EVE is a very different game than any other MMO out there, so when someone is fresh and without past experience or tips, they are absolutely lost. This means that there's a ton of things to learn, but it shouldn't be dumped all at once on the new player. If all the information comes at once, most of it will be forgotten.
It needs to be a gradual and fun experience. I would need to ask a friend that never played EVE to try the new tutorials. I started playing with the one in 2010 and I don't know how improved it is.

One thing I really don't like is how small the text is; it's hard to read.
Alain Colcer
Nadire Security Consultants
Federation Peacekeepers
#6 - 2011-11-25 12:24:37 UTC
NPE needs to be split into several "stages".

Aura 5-mission set is Excellent, little improvement needed there, if any.

Its the Career agents that haven't been reviewed properly. A newbie player should be strongly encouraged to run the Career Agents after Aura. currently there are 5 career agents (10-missions each):

-Military
-Industry
-Business
-Advanced Military
-Exploration

They are meant to be run independently (except for the adv military one), but in reality many of the missions in industry require you to fight NPC rats, same happens in the in Business missions. If someone chose industry before military (i personally tested it) finds himself struggling with combat because of lack of equipment and skills.

My suggestion is to split all areas into basic and advanced, making basic a prerequisite of the advanced ones:

Basic Military Training 5-run set
Basic Industry Training 5-run set
Basic Business Training 5-run set
Basic Exploration Training 5-run set

Basic missions provide the most important skills and show basic concepts in each topic. Then after you "unlocked" ALL the basics, you can selectively run the advanced courses.

Advanced missions are a 15-run set and are centered around providing equipment and income to the newbie. This means you give more time to the player to train skills, get used to modules and acquire wealth.

Finally, "geograpy" is another thing that should be improved. Currently there are 3 starting locations for the each NPC empire (each school). However there are also 3 sets of Career agents spread out. I know this was implemented that way for the "dragon patch" when Eve China was launched, but creates the possibility for a player to run 3 times each set of career agents.

My suggetion is to create a single set of career agents (4basic +4 adv), place them in a specific "newbie" constellation for each empire and design all the missions with the idea of traveling within that constellation as part of their design. Players often do not grasp the concept of "travel" in Eve in the first few days, it will also help the GMs to "police" and "help" newbies in those 4 specific locations across the server.


Currently we also have the newbie epic-arc, "Blood-Stained Stars", and excellent set of missions to earn isk and which sort of explain the current sleeper threat along the geopolitical composition of the Galaxy (as fiction and basis of the RPG aspects of the game). However this Arc should be suggested to the player once he has completed all the basic courses and not before. Currently, the epic arc is mentioned to the player after completing the Aura missions, and more often than not, the new players struggle againsts some of the NPC rats in the missions or lack the proper ships to complete them (at least i did if bypassed all the career agents).

Data centers and Circle Agents (not sure if these still exist) should be mentioned to the newbie player as a mean to create "contacts" with the goverment institutions on each empire.....that way the grinding of standings at the beginning is not so boring. Data centers themselves should have some of the tag requirements adjusted a bit too

If all these aspects of the game (which already exist) are properly tackled into the NPE framework as a single path for the new player, provide fun, isk and tools to break throught the difficulties of starting, i am sure you will find a much better retention rate for trials.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2011-11-25 17:40:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Tutorials are boring and unfit for purpose.

Look at normal games on the market, you have a tutorial or single player campaign that teaches you how to play and prepares you for multiplayer. EVE tutorials may show you the different things you can do but it does not teach you how to do them and PVE does not prepare you for PVP.
Voddick
AFK
#8 - 2011-11-26 00:44:18 UTC
I finally got my dad to try EVE after a few years of talking the game up.

He quit after 2 hours of game play, and cited these reasons:

1) The font was too small and there was waaayyyyy too much reading

2) The UI was difficult to understand and control. He didn’t know where to click, and even when he found it, the sections had too much text and were not intuitive.

3) There were no introductory videos. i.e. talking Aurora head / tutorial / anything.


I hope these observations help
Takara Mora
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2011-11-26 17:22:30 UTC
If I remember right and the tutorials remain similar, when you first log in, there is nothing to tell you even "where" you are in the universe ... you['re either in a station or in space ... would be nice to have a little "orientation video" showing at least a map of the system you start in, how it has stations, gates, asteroid belts, etc., so the new players know at least what to look for (i.e.-ok, I'm floating in space, I can warp to a gate to get to the next system, etc.). Maybe add to the video, an overview of the tutorials and what will happen afterwards, so they know they are working towards a goal (i.e. "the tutorials will show you the basics of EVE ... then you can pursue employment with x y z corps or epic arcs", etc. etc.).

Also, EVE's training system by nature causes noobs to feel "bored"/like they don't have any reason to keep playing while they are waiting for skills to train .... other MMO's force you to keep playing to build skills ... now, I love EVE's (offline) training system, but would be nice if we could to find a way to make noobs feel like they have a reason to keep playing to build their skills .... maybe giving out many more skill books during the tutorials (like one every mission) .... or hopefully others can come up with something even better.

Maybe let them earn skillpoints for running missions during the Tutorials? (there could be all kinds of different ways of limiting this to keep it from being abused, but still provide that addictive incentive for new players to keep playing ...).

Currently the sentiment usually turns to "oh, I'll just log out for a few days while a train my basic skills" ....

Hiram Alexander
State Reprisal
#10 - 2011-11-26 18:10:52 UTC
Evei Shard wrote:
The new player experience is alright, but it needs to be polished a bit.
I've created an alt and run through the tutorials for each race post-Incrana, and there are little bugs that can really throw someone, like when a skillbook is supposed to be given to them, but doesn't show up.
The text on some of the tutorials is a bit truncated in content, as it will say "you need [module] to do [action]" and not elude to the fact that when you click "next" the tutorial will give you one. This can leave the user looking in their hangar for an item they haven't been given yet, wondering if the tutorial is broken, etc.

Although I completely disagree with your 'Gauntlet' idea for new players - as it's far too extreme - what you've written above could hardly be more true.

I've gone through the new player experience already, for all of the races, just to see what it's like... playing it as if I were completely new, and although it's much much better than when I first started playing, there's still plenty of room for confusion.

For instance, in addition to what you've already mentioned, there's the problem of shared artwork - I might be learning about fitting Minmatar guns, but the picture in front of me that I'm hoping will help is showing Amarr...

I also found that the tutorial text windows were quite difficult to read (my resolution is very high), and I think a lot of new gamers would get frustrated at this, because learning to play something fun shouldn't reek of :effort: of course UI scaling is going to be a massive help there, but how on earth is a noob going to find the option - unless we do NPE v.2
Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions
#11 - 2011-11-27 11:20:05 UTC
Bomberlocks wrote:
The biggest hurdle to new players is that realistic pvp only starts when players have enough skills to fit and properly use t2 mods and can afford to replace their losses. This is why so many get stuck in hisec; they never get to experience PVP at the beginning of their eve career. I don't know what the solution could be; hisec pvp arenas for players under a certain skill limit possibly, but something needs to be done.

For the nullsec noobs you could make T2 frigates a little easier to get into (SP wise).

Also they'll need a way to make isk to buy these ships. You could add a few more low risk belt rat spawns into the mix, (a small handful of cruisers / frigates / battle cruisers) The "normal" belt ratters will skip over the belt rat spawns that don't have any battleships in them, and the noob ratters can skip over the tougher belts till they find something their speed. With more spawns it means that belt miners will get jumped more often, but a flight of medium drones from a hulk should have no problem chasing off a low risk belt rat spawn.

I honestly think PoCo based sov is a good idea https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1417544

King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#12 - 2011-11-28 05:14:49 UTC
Starting amount of SP needs to be increased. I recently created a new toon just to take a look at what it's like now for new players and it's far harsher than it was for me 4 years ago. When I created this toon, I started with around 800k SP including frig 3 or 4, enough gunnery that all that stood between me and t2 small AC's was the small AC spec book and enough support stuff so I could fit all t1 tanking mods (frig class) as well as speed mods and other such things.

Now you can't fit anything without spending hours on training. Sure the skills are all 10 minutes each (no implants) and you are effectively starting with all lvl5 learning skills, but there are dozens of those skills you need. It adds up fast and you can't do anything but the most basic of tutorial missions without them. The result is after creating a new toon you have to wait nearly a day before you can undock even a noob ship with a t1 meta 0 shield booster on it. That just isn't a good setup for drawing new players in.

So I think it would be a good idea to give all new characters those basic skills, nothing fancy, just the absolute minimum so they can immediately get into the game. Thus they should have all necessary skills to use any and all race appropriate t1 mods excluding MWD's. These skills should be the absolute minimum however. Caldari as a primarily missile race should start with missile skills instead of turret as well. I think this works out to about 50k SP starting instead of 5k SP. Obviously handing out skillbooks as tutorial mission rewards would need to be adjusted as this setup would eliminate their need. As a final thought, one exception should be made for the sole purpose of demonstrating what skillbooks are. The propulsion jamming skill would be perfect for that. I think that one was left out when I was a noob too.

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]

FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#13 - 2011-11-29 02:11:59 UTC  |  Edited by: FloppieTheBanjoClown
After I started the game and played through the tutorials, I still understood almost nothing about the game.

I didn't know how player corporations worked.

I didn't know anything about aggression mechanics.

I didn't know how wardecs worked.

There's a lot more that I didn't know--there's plenty that I still don't. I mention those things in particular because they definitely impact the early play of MOST new players.

I'd been conditioned that Eve gamplay primarily consisted of finding an agent and getting a mission. If you don't have prior MMO experience (I didn't) and you don't have an experienced friend to help you (I didn't) you're largely on your own to figure out how the game works.

There's not an easy solution to this, but I can say this much: right now the "tutorials" deal primarily with the interface and introducing you to various PVE content and ship modules. It needs more.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.

Zirse
Risktech Analytics
#14 - 2011-12-08 19:12:08 UTC
I think the meta or political side of the game needs to be introduced to newer players. Even a short video that plays in the CQ or something introducing the various areas in space and how and why players fight over them.

Maybe a tutorial mission that sends them to a random nearby lowsec system to fetch something would help newer players get over the lowsec is scary feeling. Give them the lowdown on how to travel safely though lowsec-- it's very hard to get nabbed in a frigate in lowsec.
Mathis Athins
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#15 - 2011-12-09 08:07:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Mathis Athins
Gah, I typed out a nice long post, but the forums lost it. Well here was the gist of it.

One of the easiest ways to learn and become absorbed into a new game after the tutorial is to find a corp who doesn't mind helping out new players. These are harder to find in Eve than in most MMOs. A way to alleviate it would be to use a tab in the corp window for Rookie Friendly Corp recruitment. There would need to be policing of these corps, my idea would be to have the CEO apply for Rookie Friendly status which would be reviewed and accepted/refused by a GM/ISD. Aura should introduce this feature to the player.

This would help integrate the new player into the social aspect of Eve. It would provide them with other rookies to play with as well as mentors who could introduce the aspects of Eve the tutorials simply can't teach. This also provides a good answer to the question of "what should I do next," that almost every new player asks after completing the tutorials.

There are such corps out there already, it just is hard for a new player to find them.