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So I'm a writer of EVE related things now. I wrote about mining.
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#21 - 2014-08-13 06:44:45 UTC
There were a few good ideas in that article. Nothing really ground breaking but at least it was reasonably balanced for being written by an EVE player.

I liked the ideas for asteroid belt changes. It's irked me since day one that these stupid little semi-rings of rocks drifting around in the middle of nowhere are what pass for belts in an otherwise pretty authentic representation of space.

Mr Epeen Cool
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
When Fleets Collide
#22 - 2014-08-13 06:51:53 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
pretty authentic representation of space.


Haha.

I don't get why people think there's anything wrong with mining. Do you mine? What are you basing your opinion on?
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#23 - 2014-08-13 06:55:49 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:
I don't get why people think there's anything wrong with mining. Do you mine? What are you basing your opinion on?

I don't think epeen has a problem with mining or miners, just the model of asteroid belts currently used in the game.

I'd almost go as far as to say epeen loves miners, but that is my own assumption based on reading his posts.
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
When Fleets Collide
#24 - 2014-08-13 07:00:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Ria Nieyli
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Ria Nieyli wrote:
I don't get why people think there's anything wrong with mining. Do you mine? What are you basing your opinion on?

I don't think epeen has a problem with mining or miners, just the model of asteroid belts currently used in the game.

I'd almost go as far as to say epeen loves miners, but that is my own assumption based on reading his posts.


I took a titan bridge to the top belt in the system I was in, and the belt seemed fine...
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#25 - 2014-08-13 07:13:16 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:
Premise Two: For the level of risk involved, HiSec mining is leagues more profitable than in LowSec or NullSec.

That's simply wrong.


I invite you to explain why my premise is wrong.

Mr Epeen wrote:
It's irked me since day one that these stupid little semi-rings of rocks drifting around in the middle of nowhere are what pass for belts in an otherwise pretty authentic representation of space.

Mr Epeen Cool


Me too. I always wondered "why is everything in the asteroid belts useful? And why are the belts around planets and not the sun?"

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
When Fleets Collide
#26 - 2014-08-13 07:16:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Ria Nieyli
Xuixien wrote:
Ria Nieyli wrote:
Premise Two: For the level of risk involved, HiSec mining is leagues more profitable than in LowSec or NullSec.

That's simply wrong.


I invite you to explain why my premise is wrong.

Mr Epeen wrote:
It's irked me since day one that these stupid little semi-rings of rocks drifting around in the middle of nowhere are what pass for belts in an otherwise pretty authentic representation of space.

Mr Epeen Cool


Me too. I always wondered "why is everything in the asteroid belts useful? And why are the belts around planets and not the sun?"



Because mining in nullsec is more lucrative than it is in highsec and the risk isn't that much higher. Ask a renter.
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#27 - 2014-08-13 07:24:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Xuixien
Ria Nieyli wrote:
Xuixien wrote:
Ria Nieyli wrote:
Premise Two: For the level of risk involved, HiSec mining is leagues more profitable than in LowSec or NullSec.

That's simply wrong.


I invite you to explain why my premise is wrong.

Mr Epeen wrote:
It's irked me since day one that these stupid little semi-rings of rocks drifting around in the middle of nowhere are what pass for belts in an otherwise pretty authentic representation of space.

Mr Epeen Cool


Me too. I always wondered "why is everything in the asteroid belts useful? And why are the belts around planets and not the sun?"



Because mining in nullsec is more lucrative than it is in highsec and the risk isn't that much higher. Ask a renter.


That doesn't mean that the ratio isn't more favorable in HiSec (else why would most mining take place in HiSec?). For example you can AFK in HiSec all day, whereas in NullSec you can't.

At current prices you make about 1 mil more an hour mining Crokite than Scordite. You make 2 mil an hour less, and 3 mil an hour less, mining Arkonor and Bistot, respectively.

You actually make more ISK/hr mining the 3 LowSec ores than you do any NullSec ore. I'm not sure why that is. I think it's due to with the sizes of the ores being smaller than the NullSec ores.

So what you're saying is either HiSec needs to become even safer, or NullSec needs a shake up to make it less safe.

EDIT: But let me ask you a question regarding NullSec mining: Is it safe when there's neutrals in system?

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#28 - 2014-08-13 07:27:36 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:


I'd almost go as far as to say epeen loves miners, but that is my own assumption based on reading his posts.


As much as most of of the miners I see are the most endearing little wide eyed nooblets, I wouldn't go as far as saying that I love them.

Though I do tend to support the profession as it is the bedrock on which EVE functions. Love them or hate them, without miners you'd not be losing 50 capital ships in epic battles. In fact you wouldn't be doing anything. Period.

So I'm always interested in seeing ideas to make the profession more interesting. Not uber. Not ungankable. Just designed with something besides needing Netflix trained to 5 before you can stomach it.

Mr Epeen Cool
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#29 - 2014-08-13 07:29:28 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:


So I'm always interested in seeing ideas to make the profession more interesting. Not uber. Not ungankable. Just designed with something besides needing Netflix trained to 5 before you can stomach it.

Mr Epeen Cool


I agree with that.

I'd like to see the act of mining itself changed to something that was a little more active on the part of the player, perhaps shorter cycle times and making all the ores larger. But that sort of thing is beyond my creativity.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Derrick Miles
Death Rabbit Ky Oneida
#30 - 2014-08-13 07:43:58 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:


So I'm always interested in seeing ideas to make the profession more interesting. Not uber. Not ungankable. Just designed with something besides needing Netflix trained to 5 before you can stomach it.

Mr Epeen Cool


I agree with that.

I'd like to see the act of mining itself changed to something that was a little more active on the part of the player, perhaps shorter cycle times and making all the ores larger. But that sort of thing is beyond my creativity.

I like the idea of addressing mining and making it a more interesting and engaging activity, but I don't think just making it more active is enough. Then it's still mind-numbingly boring and you don't even get netflix either.

Nice article by the way, good to see some content on an often neglected issue.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2014-08-13 07:48:47 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:


So I'm always interested in seeing ideas to make the profession more interesting. Not uber. Not ungankable. Just designed with something besides needing Netflix trained to 5 before you can stomach it.

Mr Epeen Cool


I agree with that.

I'd like to see the act of mining itself changed to something that was a little more active on the part of the player, perhaps shorter cycle times and making all the ores larger. But that sort of thing is beyond my creativity.


Oh you mean the kind of stuff that will get players to buy bots or flat out quit?

Leave mining the hell alone! You want more interactive, go reset your PI extractors every minute for maximum PI profits and see how long you can last before you realize just how terrible your "more interactive" idea really is.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#32 - 2014-08-13 07:50:06 UTC
Derrick Miles wrote:
I'd like to see the act of mining itself changed to something that was a little more active on the part of the player...

Just put a Billboard in every asteroid belt and stream Netflix straight into that.

No one will be AFK.

Miners win. Code wins. win-win outcome.

We can all live happily ever after as a big family under the rainbow. Utopia.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#33 - 2014-08-13 07:55:14 UTC
Sentamon wrote:

Oh you mean the kind of stuff that will get players to buy bots or flat out quit?

Leave mining the hell alone! You want more interactive, go reset your PI extractors every minute for maximum PI profits and see how long you can last before you realize just how terrible your "more interactive" idea really is.


No game should encourage actively not playing it while logged in.

PI is fine because, much like industry, it is "off screen", for lack of a better word.

Mining, on the other hand, is out in open space. Besides, if they make mining into a visual minigame like hacking is, it's pretty tricky to actually bot.

So, two of the worst things in EVE are destroyed simultaneously. The worst bastion of afk gameplay, and the most bot friendly activity.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#34 - 2014-08-13 07:57:58 UTC
I will quote myself from another thread about "fixing" mining

Schmata Bastanold wrote:
I would like to see mining more as an activity based on searching for ore where both in-game and out-of-game skills come together. Maybe kind of like PI but on smaller scale with probes shot at asteroids, triangulation of best yield areas, etc. To be honest act of putting ore in your cargo should be least important part of whole process, finding ore should be the most important and time & skill & fun inducing part.


I guess that would be prospecting part in your article. Mining is boring because it basically consists of 2 actions: warp to belt, shoot lazorz at rock. Only by scaling up your fleet of alts you can minimize "stand by" periods so when one miner cycles you take care of second, third, fourth, hauler, etc. But not everybody has enough money to have even 2 accounts not mentioning more and basically scouting for ore could be interesting option and mini profession.

I'm not advocating here making it "more accessible for newbies" or sth like that, it's obvious that whatever newbie can do vet can do faster and more efficiently. I'm talking about mining gameplay where actual shooting lazorz at rock would be last and least important part of resource gathering process. Again, kind of like PI where finding good spot on planet and placing your command center and extractors (or whatever those thingies are called) is far more engaging and important than actual shooting packages of PI products into the orbit for your hauler to pick up.

Invalid signature format
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#35 - 2014-08-13 08:00:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Epeen
Xuixien wrote:


Mr Epeen wrote:
It's irked me since day one that these stupid little semi-rings of rocks drifting around in the middle of nowhere are what pass for belts in an otherwise pretty authentic representation of space.

Mr Epeen Cool


Me too. I always wondered "why is everything in the asteroid belts useful? And why are the belts around planets and not the sun?"



It's not even that they are around planets. They are little blobs of rock 'orbiting' planets. I'd be fine with a full ring around a planet. Like Saturn, for example.

You could have a lot of crap with some minable rocks thrown in. It might even add some interest if all the rocks were not even named and you had to survey them to find one with some ore in it to mine. At least it would keep you occupied and might make botting a little less worthwhile.

Then in some systems you could do the same thing but around the star. Though it might end up slowing down the game or burning out video cards with the million or so rocks you'd need to make it look like a real belt.

ed~I type real slow so if it appears I'm repeating stuff posted above, I'm not. So there!

Mr Epeen Cool
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2014-08-13 08:17:57 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Sentamon wrote:

Oh you mean the kind of stuff that will get players to buy bots or flat out quit?

Leave mining the hell alone! You want more interactive, go reset your PI extractors every minute for maximum PI profits and see how long you can last before you realize just how terrible your "more interactive" idea really is.


No game should encourage actively not playing it while logged in.

PI is fine because, much like industry, it is "off screen", for lack of a better word.

Mining, on the other hand, is out in open space. Besides, if they make mining into a visual minigame like hacking is, it's pretty tricky to actually bot.

So, two of the worst things in EVE are destroyed simultaneously. The worst bastion of afk gameplay, and the most bot friendly activity.


Yes! Because pointless clicking all over the screen is playing, but reseting lasers here and there while I chat and do other things is not. What a load of bs.

The ONLY features in eve and any other mmo that's not bot friendly is pvp. Every single feature anyplace that's pve especially when it comes to resourse gathering is bot friendly. The reason you don't see people making bots for the hacking game is because of the lack or interest in it and the crappy rewards, not because its difficult to bot.

Come up with ideas that cause competition over resources, ie pvp, not minigames that the vast majority will hate.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#37 - 2014-08-13 08:22:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Sentamon wrote:

Come up with ideas that cause competition over resources, ie pvp, not minigames that the vast majority will hate.


The "vast majority" of people cried their little eyes out about the Ice Mining changes a while back, which were to encourage competition for resources.

Either way, someone will be pissed off. That's no reason to not fix the game.

[edit: Oh, and I find it hilarious that you call actually playing the game "pointless clicking". Maybe they should make an interactive novel with a chatroom for people who like mining the way it is. You don't have to play the game at all, just press a button every twenty minutes and get bacon.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
When Fleets Collide
#38 - 2014-08-13 08:37:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Ria Nieyli
Xuixien wrote:
That doesn't mean that the ratio isn't more favorable in HiSec (else why would most mining take place in HiSec?). For example you can AFK in HiSec all day, whereas in NullSec you can't.

At current prices you make about 1 mil more an hour mining Crokite than Scordite. You make 2 mil an hour less, and 3 mil an hour less, mining Arkonor and Bistot, respectively.

You actually make more ISK/hr mining the 3 LowSec ores than you do any NullSec ore. I'm not sure why that is. I think it's due to with the sizes of the ores being smaller than the NullSec ores.

So what you're saying is either HiSec needs to become even safer, or NullSec needs a shake up to make it less safe.

EDIT: But let me ask you a question regarding NullSec mining: Is it safe when there's neutrals in system?


I'd advise against mining ore unless you're building something with it that will give you better margins on your time. Even then, after you've gotten up to like 3-4x of your production in available cash, you can stop mining altogether, unless you really want to keep going.

The real cashski is in the ice. Even more so after Crius.

As for your highsec question: it's fine as it is.

As for the neutral: a neutral in null is the same as a suicide ganker in highsec. There's even intel channels in highsec from what I gather, and if you undock in a mining barge when there's a ganker in your system... well...

Xuixien wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:


So I'm always interested in seeing ideas to make the profession more interesting. Not uber. Not ungankable. Just designed with something besides needing Netflix trained to 5 before you can stomach it.

Mr Epeen Cool


I agree with that.

I'd like to see the act of mining itself changed to something that was a little more active on the part of the player, perhaps shorter cycle times and making all the ores larger. But that sort of thing is beyond my creativity.


You'd want shorter cycle times and/or smaller asteroids, not larger.
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#39 - 2014-08-13 08:49:28 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:


I'd like to see the act of mining itself changed to something that was a little more active on the part of the player, perhaps shorter cycle times and making all the ores larger. But that sort of thing is beyond my creativity.


You'd want shorter cycle times and/or smaller asteroids, not larger.[/quote]

I mean the physical size of the ore. m3.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
When Fleets Collide
#40 - 2014-08-13 08:52:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Ria Nieyli
Xuixien wrote:
I mean the physical size of the ore. m3.


That would just mean more trips to and from the belt for the solo miner.

Smaller roid size will make everyone change targets more often etc.