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Do you enjoy how fleets are ran?

Author
Prince Kobol
#21 - 2014-08-09 17:54:28 UTC
Tweek Etimua wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:
fairimear wrote:
I don't like primary target calling. its not so much how fleets are ran but how eve mechanics dictate they work.
I hate the fact we all take doctrine ships. form a ball and just shoot 1 guy on the other side.

It's a core flaw in EVE's mechanics for me and where itis fun to win fleet fights and stuff in a perfect world i would love to see the brawling fleet fights of the eve trailers.

This is a problem with logi more than anything else (mechanics, as you said). They scale too well in numbers, and are frankly, a necessity to any fleet that doesn't want to get completely spanked now. Yes, the "call primary and hope it dies before reps catch" style of things really does need to be addressed.



I do agree that its crappy mechanics, actually it would of been great if CCP never introduce the concept of a logical ships.

Saying this I do not see how CCP can change this. People have become so obsessed about having tons of logi on whatever fleet they run that if you nerf them you would get so many tears and you would probably find you get less fleets because by and large people are risk adverse.

Eve without logi would actually great fun Big smile



I would argue that this is not a CCP generated thing. Instead it's player generated. I have yet to see a corp try any tning else. I dont mean in their head or on papper I mean realy try it.



Of course it is. It was CCP that introduced the mechanic, it was CCP that introduced the Ships, The modules.. are you seriously trying to say that CCP did not foresee that people would actually try and use such a powerful tool?

Tweek Etimua
Noir. Militia
#22 - 2014-08-09 18:29:52 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Tweek Etimua wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:
fairimear wrote:
I don't like primary target calling. its not so much how fleets are ran but how eve mechanics dictate they work.
I hate the fact we all take doctrine ships. form a ball and just shoot 1 guy on the other side.

It's a core flaw in EVE's mechanics for me and where itis fun to win fleet fights and stuff in a perfect world i would love to see the brawling fleet fights of the eve trailers.

This is a problem with logi more than anything else (mechanics, as you said). They scale too well in numbers, and are frankly, a necessity to any fleet that doesn't want to get completely spanked now. Yes, the "call primary and hope it dies before reps catch" style of things really does need to be addressed.



I do agree that its crappy mechanics, actually it would of been great if CCP never introduce the concept of a logical ships.

Saying this I do not see how CCP can change this. People have become so obsessed about having tons of logi on whatever fleet they run that if you nerf them you would get so many tears and you would probably find you get less fleets because by and large people are risk adverse.

Eve without logi would actually great fun Big smile



I would argue that this is not a CCP generated thing. Instead it's player generated. I have yet to see a corp try any tning else. I dont mean in their head or on papper I mean realy try it.



Of course it is. It was CCP that introduced the mechanic, it was CCP that introduced the Ships, The modules.. are you seriously trying to say that CCP did not foresee that people would actually try and use such a powerful tool?


No what im saying is that its possible that you may be able to orgonize a fleet differently and still ne effective.
Prince Kobol
#23 - 2014-08-09 18:43:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
Sorry to say that is wishful thinking.

If you form a fleet up today and do not have any logi's then you will get smashed.

There are many amazing FC's in Eve who have come up some very imaginative fleet concepts and tactics yet I have never seen a large fleet without logi support because it is essential.

With good logi support a fleet can take on twice its numbers and still win.

Logi is very powerful, too powerful truth be told but as I said before, I doubt CCP would even dare try and change it because they know how much rage and tears it would cause.

Personally I would look like to see the range of remote reppers at least halved so logi ships have be much closer to the fight and maybe a reduction in repping power. Just start small and take it from there, but definitely a big reduction in repping range should be on the cards.
Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2014-08-11 10:23:27 UTC
As someone who runs fleet, yes.

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik

pipvac
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2014-08-11 11:02:38 UTC
Having played EVE for a very long time, I have had the pleasure of flying with a vast array of personalities.

Those that I have enjoyed the most are:-


  • Those who dictate clear voice commands, calmly and effectively, with the patience of a saint.
  • They have learnt that shouting isn't the answer, but effective communication is.
    They know that respect is earnt not given.
    They remember that this is a game, and that we are here to have fun, and shoot internet spaceships.
    They understand the game mechanics and the tools available to them.
    They give notice of the nature of the op, and ensure people have time enough to prepare and feel included.
    They listen to feedback, take the good from it, and adapt.
    They welcome participation first, then encourage compliance with doctrine.
    They deliver results.
    They do not point the finger, but take responsibility for the actions of their fleet.
    They deal with individual issues outside of the group, and give individuals a chance to succeed despite earlier failures.
    They empower the newbies to learn, and the veterans to win.
    They have a sense of humour, and can switch between being the leader and joining in where appropriate.


The tools EVE provide for fleet management are woefully outdated now. Its amazing what some of Eve's FC talent achieves with the tools they do have.

As always some do this well, and others not so well. But we do all have a choice who we choose to fly with.

Having recently returned from a long break, my experience in null at the moment has been very good, within the fleets I've participated in. They could do with taking another look at a couple of the items in my list, but which of us couldn't ?
Marcus Gord
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#26 - 2014-08-11 11:35:19 UTC
As someone who runs small gangs, usually less than like 20 people, yes, I enjoy them.

mostly because i know all of the people I fly with are competent.

In a few moments you will have an experience that will seem completely real. It will be the result of your subconscious fears transformed to your conscious awareness.

http://i.imgur.com/LM2NKUf.png

Ashlar Maidstone
MoonFyre BattleGroup Holdings
#27 - 2014-08-11 11:37:19 UTC
Do I enjoy my fleets?? The answer is a HUGE YES!!! In my alliance I have flown under some of the nicest FC's and fellow ally members and that has made my experiences in Providence so much better even. MY FC's are very knowledgeable about their responsibilities and also very helpful with fittings if I need one in a hurry during formups.Big smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smile
Ashlar Maidstone
MoonFyre BattleGroup Holdings
#28 - 2014-08-11 11:42:43 UTC
GreenSeed wrote:
the problem is not the FCs, the problem is the fleet system. its 11 years old, and it takes only 10 seconds of looking at it to realize it was designed before the game even existed. if you ask someone who never played eve in his life to design a fleet system, the current fleet system would be the result. at first glance it looks ok, with wings and squads and other 'cool' things... almost everything in it has some logical reason to be there, leadership positions, boosts, broadcasting tools...

the thing is,10 years later even people who have never FCed more than two alts doing mining in highsec have a huge lists of improvements and changes to make. some have slowly been making its way in, like the "flag exempt from warp", color coding, expanded watch lists, saving of naming on wigs and squads... etc.

this outdated fleet system, that for some reason has resisted any meaningful change is the main reason behind FCs losing their **** when someone misses an alignment. or goes outside of damped lock range of the logis, or doesn't move from a lead spot fast enough, etc, etc. we don't have any way of relaying that information in a clear visual way, we depend on everyone "knowing their ****".

the main issue is simple, if you have 4+ years of practice you can appreciate some of the things in the fleet system. if you are new in the game, you will hate it with passion and feel every CTA as a chore. and yes, i just did that, i played the NPE card.

a newbie flying an exequror wont play for months until they can effectively make the call to bounce off a celestial/safe to change their position on the grid, they will just get yelled at when they get caught and killed, and they wont come back.

we need tools to create not only fleet positions and roles, but also suggested fits to take them. this would make newbie gangs all the more easy to run.

we need alliance level tools IN GAME for FCs to make a shopping list before the call for the fleet is up. so that the dudes doing logistics can set up contracts.

we need to get rid of the crap contract system... -.-' and have some kind of alliance/corporate ship dispenser of some sort that industrialist can "fill up" as needed with hulls and modules and from the other end ships matching the skills of the requester came out. (following the authorization by the FC, and following his doctrine)

we need a way for FCs to "draw" in space instead of broadcasting something and having everyone mindlessly following the alignments.

we need to allow FCs to que up fleet movements and alignments.

we need ships to be able to follow predefined trajectories in space. and we need a way to relay them to other ships in the fleet.

we need to able to share intel upwards. a combat prober should be able to relay his results to the FC, then the FC can relay the warps down to the fleet.

we need a flexible fleet structure with tradeoffs. want a squadless, wingless fleet so you can take a herd of newbies in an adventure? alright, here is the deal, you get a fleet that can grow up to 50 members, all of them under the same lead. and you can assign one booster that will affect the whole fleet for every 10 members in it, but every booster can only activate one link. and lets not call this thing a fleet, lets call it a "gang". (im feeling original)

we cant really blame the people yelling at the newbies, and we cant blame the newbies either... the problem is the fleet system.


You given me even more ideas to which I will remember these things as I get into FC'ing soon!! Thank you!!
Kirluin
#29 - 2014-08-11 13:12:10 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Sorry to say that is wishful thinking.

If you form a fleet up today and do not have any logi's then you will get smashed.
...
Personally I would look like to see the range of remote reppers at least halved so logi ships have be much closer to the fight and maybe a reduction in repping power. Just start small and take it from there, but definitely a big reduction in repping range should be on the cards.


I do agree with the idea of logi being perhaps too powerful. However, having recently switched from the "dps/f1/only the FC is having any fun" side of the fleet to logi, I find that logistics is vastly more interesting gameplay. I'm constantly making decisions, predicting the near future, having to be alert etc. must have a great fit. my skills trained make an enormous difference. can't be semi-afk logi.

I would recommend cutting rep power over range though, to have more impact without killing the strategic part of logistic play. At the same time smooth the curve out so it's not "logi 5 or go home." i.e. scale outgoing rep power with the logi skill, not cap viability.

if any balance comes to the logi side, I would hope that ccp preserves what is currently the most fun (to me anyway) aspect of fleet battles.
Kirluin
#30 - 2014-08-11 13:13:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Kirluin
deleted, server ate my actual post and now I can't be arsed to rewrite the greatest post ever known.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#31 - 2014-08-11 13:18:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Grumis Talford wrote:
Do you enjoy the way most of eve runs fleets?

If not what are some other ways they could be ran and still be effective?


I haven't' read anything but this 1st post, but Im sure someone else must have said this by now. If you don't like how a fleet is run, STFU and run it yourself.

This is a serious peeve of mine, when FW started we had null sec FCs running fleets, when some left some of us who not much experience took over (rather than whine in militia chat about there being no fleets). I did so for a few months but the same people who wouldn't start a fleet to save their lives had LOTS to say about how i ran them. it's one of the reasons i quit FCing.

I'm glad you can't actually reach into a computer screen and choke a mother ****** , I'd be in prison right now if you could.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#32 - 2014-08-11 13:20:37 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Grumis Talford wrote:
Do you enjoy the way most of eve runs fleets?



I'm fine with it. Large fleet fights are right up there with mining for how little attention you need to pay to the game. You need one ear and one hand focused on the game. That leaves a hand free for beer and pizza, an ear free for listening to the TV show you are streaming on your other monitor and your eyes free to watch that show.

Mr Epeen Cool


You mean like the entire rest of the game called EVE Online?
Serene Repose
#33 - 2014-08-11 16:55:24 UTC
FCs run fleets, right? I haven't met all the FCs. The only FCs I've dealt with FC-ed fleets I was in. We survived. They must've done alright. I don't play with loud, obnoxious know-it-alls. Anybody who makes one of those an FC...well....

"That's what you get."

Big smile

We must accommodate the idiocracy.

Tweek Etimua
Noir. Militia
#34 - 2014-08-11 17:01:34 UTC
Kirluin wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Sorry to say that is wishful thinking.

If you form a fleet up today and do not have any logi's then you will get smashed.
...
Personally I would look like to see the range of remote reppers at least halved so logi ships have be much closer to the fight and maybe a reduction in repping power. Just start small and take it from there, but definitely a big reduction in repping range should be on the cards.


I do agree with the idea of logi being perhaps too powerful. However, having recently switched from the "dps/f1/only the FC is having any fun" side of the fleet to logi, I find that logistics is vastly more interesting gameplay. I'm constantly making decisions, predicting the near future, having to be alert etc. must have a great fit. my skills trained make an enormous difference. can't be semi-afk logi.

I would recommend cutting rep power over range though, to have more impact without killing the strategic part of logistic play. At the same time smooth the curve out so it's not "logi 5 or go home." i.e. scale outgoing rep power with the logi skill, not cap viability.

if any balance comes to the logi side, I would hope that ccp preserves what is currently the most fun (to me anyway) aspect of fleet battles.


Kurluin said what i was trying, accept

Quote:
However, having recently switched from the "dps/f1/only the FC is having any fun" side of the fleet to logi, I find that logistics is vastly more interesting gameplay. I'm constantly making decisions, predicting the near future, having to be alert etc

I would say that this idea can be true about any part of the fleet...
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