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Mordu's Legion 'Sub Capital ship' hybrid idea
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Chang Liang
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2014-08-10 16:26:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Chang Liang
Greetings all.

While I understand that Pirate Factions are not likely to be given a capital ship each anytime soon... I felt still that I enjoyed the design and the role that the faction ships of Mordu's Legion provide.

For this I got inspired enough to make a special carrier hybrid that is not a fully fledged 'capital ship', but something between a capital ship and a battleship, a hybrid I will dub 'Sub Captial ship'.

This hybrid could be also called an Escort Carrier, due to the fact it has a small drone bay, enough for a squadron of fighters and still carry up to Battleship-class Missile Launchers (yes, it can still use down to Rockets if one want to).

Hopefully this idea may be considered, but I do realize this idea can be very controversial to some, yet it might be an excellent idea, as it may fit Mordu's Legion's battle philosophy and show that they can be quite innovative in ship design.

Arbalest - Mordu's Legion Escort Carrier

Development
In YC 116, Mordu’s Legion intelligence reported to command that the Guristas pirates were developing new and advanced strike craft capabilities using unknown technologies. In response to these reports, Mordu’s Legion accelerated a program of ship development that was itself a response to trends in capsuleer tactics and warfare. The crash development and manufacturing effort resulted in a new family of fast strike ships integrated with one another to provide tactical flexibility and firepower across ship class lines.

The Arbalest is a unique ship that yet represents the doctorine of the Legion's ambition: A fast moving, hard striking half-carrier, dubbed the 'Escort Carrier' by some, that is able to field a small squadron of fighters and/or drones and yet have the ability to fight as a battleship.


SHIP BONUSES

Gallente Battleship bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to warp scrambler and warp disruptor maximum range

Gallente Carrier bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to fighter and drone damage and hitpoints

Caldari Battleship bonuses (per skill level):
5% bonus to all missile damage

Caldari Carrier bonuses (per skill level):
7% bonus to max velocity

Role Bonus:
200% bonus to missile velocity
50% penalty to missile flight time

Ship Notes:
Ship is not restricted to low or null security space

Cannot fit Citadel-class Launchers (aka XL Launchers)

Cannot fit Drone Control Units (DCUs)

Jump Drives can only be activated in Low-sec and Null-sec.
(CONCORD still enforces the jump drive laws, even if the Escort Carrier may legally enter Hi-Sec via the gates, it may not enter or exit Hi-Sec with Jump Drives)


SHIP ATTRIBUTES
(Note: Numbers are approximate, not set in stone: Only CCP may decide which is best balanced for this kind of hybrid ship)

Fittings

Powergrid: 100,000 MW
CPU: 800 TF
Capacitor: 20,000 GJ

Slots

High: 8
Medium: 7
Low: 5

Turrets: 0
Launchers: 6

Navigation

Max Velocity: 90 m/sec
Inertia Modifier: 0.057
Warp Speed: 2.0 AU/s
Base Time to Warp: 35 seconds

Jump Drives

Maximum Jump Range: 4,5 ly
Jump Drive Fuel Need: Nitrogen Isotopes
Jump Drive Consumption Amount: 500 units

Drones

Drone Capacity: 26,000 m3 (5 Fighters + 1,000 m3 value of smaller drones)
Drone Bandwith: 185 Mbit/sec

Targeting

Maximum Targeting Range: 100 km
Max Locked Targets: 7
Gravimetric Sensor Strength: 44 points
Signature Radius: 1,600 m (approximate, but again Arbalest is an Escort Carrier, half the size of a normal T1 carrier)
Scan Resolution: 78 mm

Structure

Structure Hitpoints: 35,000 HP
Mass: 594,000,000 kg (approx)
Volume: 5,962,500 m3 (approx)
Cargo Capacity: 700 m3
Fleet Hangar Capacity: 30,000 m3
Fuel Bay Capacity: 2,000 m3

Shields

Shield Capacity: 54,000 HP
Resistances: EM 0% - Thermal 20% - Kinetic 30% - Explosive 40%

Armor

Armor Hitpoints: 30,000 HP
Resistances: EM 50% - Thermal 45% - Kinetic 25% - Explosive 10%

Miscellaneous

Calibration: 400 points
Rig size: L - Large
Upgrade Hardpoints: 3 points

Ship Maintenance Bay Capacity: 300,000 m3
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#2 - 2014-08-10 16:37:32 UTC
Totally over powered as it is. and the appropriate classification is "escort carrier"

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Kuroi Aurgnet
Cry Of Death
Almost Underdogs
#3 - 2014-08-10 16:41:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Kuroi Aurgnet
James Baboli wrote:
Totally over powered as it is. and the appropriate classification is "escort carrier"



Damn he beat me to it. This would quite literally be the MO,ST overpowered and broken ship in the game.

1 nothing with capital ship weapons should be in high sec.
2. Nothing wit jump drives should be in high sec
3. No ship should ever have four skill bonuses besides the t3 ships with the subsystems. Ever.



Oh, and, nothing that can use fighters should ever have guns.

Just that hint of cynicism the world needs now and then.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#4 - 2014-08-10 16:45:15 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
The artistic and design effort is to be commended.
You can expect to get quite a few flame posts so I will gently point out a few concerns that will be raised, you might want to consider them before they wake up and come onto the forums.

The skill training requiring two carrier skills is somewhat significant.
However as it appears to be a carrier in all but name, that does have some justification.

And there is where the crazies will get woken.

This would be the most powerful ship in hisec and that is probably not such a good idea.

The concept of Ships jumping directly from null to HS will raise peoples temperature and pulses.

There is a concern regarding drone use particularly sentries. Whilst this may not be insanely overpowered in their use, people are trying to even Nerf ships like the ishtar out of existance, I cannot even imagine how they would react to this in HS.

A few of these on a .5 gate will make wardecs genocide.
On the other hand, they will be an irresistible gank target.

You may also wish to clarify the carrier features it retains or does not carry over.

You presented this really nicely, and thought the concept through, but unfortunately there are a few points that you really need to address, first.

Good luck and hopefully you can address them before the unpleasantness that will follow has a chance to start.

Edit:- people got in first.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Chang Liang
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5 - 2014-08-10 16:48:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Chang Liang
-Self snippage-

I changed some restrictions on the Escort Carrier aswell as changed it's name. Main post updated.
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#6 - 2014-08-10 16:51:28 UTC
id be ok with this if it didn't have the damage bonus to fighters and remove the velocity bonus

but fighters in highsec would destroy the game

would need really to just have bonuses to super heavy drones like the geko's rather than take capital weapons to highsec
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#7 - 2014-08-10 16:56:58 UTC
I can see the ship having a role, however, one needs to be very careful, not to introduce significant increases to power in Hisec over and above the maurauder.

There are unquestionably some nice features if the overall balance was right.

But as always the devil is in the detail.
Good luck.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Chang Liang
State War Academy
Caldari State
#8 - 2014-08-10 16:59:27 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
The artistic and design effort is to be commended.
You can expect to get quite a few flame posts so I will gently point out a few concerns that will be raised, you might want to consider them before they wake up and come onto the forums.

The skill training requiring two carrier skills is somewhat significant.
However as it appears to be a carrier in all but name, that does have some justification.

And there is where the crazies will get woken.

This would be the most powerful ship in hisec and that is probably not such a good idea.

The concept of Ships jumping directly from null to HS will raise peoples temperature and pulses.

There is a concern regarding drone use particularly sentries. Whilst this may not be insanely overpowered in their use, people are trying to even Nerf ships like the ishtar out of existance, I cannot even imagine how they would react to this in HS.

A few of these on a .5 gate will make wardecs genocide.
On the other hand, they will be an irresistible gank target.

You may also wish to clarify the carrier features it retains or does not carry over.

You presented this really nicely, and thought the concept through, but unfortunately there are a few points that you really need to address, first.

Good luck and hopefully you can address them before the unpleasantness that will follow has a chance to start.

Edit:- people got in first.


I noticed that it would be taboo to allow jump drives into Hi-sec. And I assume CONCORD would be pulling their hair if they found out someone was trying to sneak in jump drive jumps into high-sec. So on this point I have changed a few points about my Escort Carrier.

Ship Notes:
Ship is not restricted to low or null security space

Cannot fit Citadel-class Launchers (aka XL Launchers)

Cannot fit Drone Control Units (DCUs)

Jump Drives can only be activated in Low-sec and Null-sec.
(CONCORD still enforces the jump drive laws, even if the Escort Carrier may legally enter Hi-Sec via the gates, it may not enter or exit Hi-Sec with Jump Drives)

With this, it means this Escort Carrier can still enter high-sec, but cannot do so via Jump Drives. Also it can only fit up to Large Launchers on it's high slots to make it more balanced (thus stopping XL Launchers from being used in High-Sec, secondarily it is so the Escort Carrier can retain it's speed).

Also it's hangar can only have up to Five Fighters at most aswell as +1,000 m3 woth of drones and unlike other Carriers, the Escort Carrier cannot apply on DCU's to limit it's firepower a bit.
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#9 - 2014-08-10 17:40:40 UTC
The jump drive laws are just no cynos, so that is already settled. No capital weapons is good, but also frankly daft. You can fit capitals weapons to subcaps as is (abbadon with capital hybrid), so the easier way is just to leave the pg and cpu below capital weapons levels, actually you can also fit capital remote shield to a basilisk I think, was some random I wonder moment and then my wallet cried, the game cried, and my friend ran in terror and forgot the monster was to help him. So no, capital restrictions as hard codes are bad, just make it so people have to fit for them.

As an escort carrier the idea is good. 5 fighters or 5 drones is acceptable. Add some missiles and you have a respectable craft, especially as you can just use the carrier logic for .4 to require the escort be on grid with fighters to control them.

4 separate bonuses is odd, perhaps choose 2 bonuses then split them in half amongst the bs and carrier skills or require one bs one carrier skill.
Chang Liang
State War Academy
Caldari State
#10 - 2014-08-10 17:51:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Chang Liang
NEONOVUS wrote:
The jump drive laws are just no cynos, so that is already settled. No capital weapons is good, but also frankly daft. You can fit capitals weapons to subcaps as is (abbadon with capital hybrid), so the easier way is just to leave the pg and cpu below capital weapons levels, actually you can also fit capital remote shield to a basilisk I think, was some random I wonder moment and then my wallet cried, the game cried, and my friend ran in terror and forgot the monster was to help him. So no, capital restrictions as hard codes are bad, just make it so people have to fit for them.

As an escort carrier the idea is good. 5 fighters or 5 drones is acceptable. Add some missiles and you have a respectable craft, especially as you can just use the carrier logic for .4 to require the escort be on grid with fighters to control them.

4 separate bonuses is odd, perhaps choose 2 bonuses then split them in half amongst the bs and carrier skills or require one bs one carrier skill.


As another user pointed out, some people would have their blood boiling if I were to try to push for Jump Drives to be used on this kind of ship from Low/Null to Hi-sec. For balance sake, I decided this limit. And for the sake of everyone's blood pressure...

I didn't know one could fit an XL hybrid turret to an Abbadon, it had to be quite an extraordinary fit however. Anyways, the reason why the Escort Carrier cannot use Citadel Launchers is due to two things: Firstly it is half the size of an actual carrier (I used the Chimera as the example) and secondly it was for sake of balance. Yet the powergrid have been quite reduced compared to the Chimera.

The Arbalest cannot use DCUs (Drone Control Units) like other Carriers can, so it can only deploy either the five fighters it can carry in the bay or five drones of the user's choosing. And actually there is no 'dedicated fighter bay', the drone bay is a solid 26,000 m3 so if one would want, the carrier could just have ordinary drones it it. A Fighter however got a size of 5,000 m3 per fighter, I set the drone bay to be just big enough to fit five fighters plus drones on the side. This seems like a reasonable balance, thinking that the Arbalest can still use up to Large Launchers (Battleship-class Cruise Missiles and Torpedoes) and directly engage in combat (which no other carrier can to date).

Hmm... A reason why I had four seperate bonuses is to represent that this hybrid is unusual and unique: A mix of a Battleship and a Carrier of half the size. But your statement makes sense. As for one BS an Carrier skill only, Mordu's Legion is both Gallente and Caldari in design, so I would have to either move the bonuses to just Battleship (which wouldn't make sense) or to Carrier (which makes more sense, but then it seems to lose that uniqueness I sought for).
Celthric Kanerian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2014-08-10 22:50:12 UTC
Drinking on a Sunday ain't a wise idea my friend...
Chang Liang
State War Academy
Caldari State
#12 - 2014-08-11 07:10:33 UTC
Celthric Kanerian wrote:
Drinking on a Sunday ain't a wise idea my friend...


Actually I dont drink at all. Never found alchohol worthwhile anyways.
Grunnax Aurelius
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2014-08-11 07:50:53 UTC
Go drink some more battery acid before posting bizarre stupid ideas like this ok Big smile.

2 racial battleship skills to level 5 = 2 months
2 racial carrier skills to level 5 = 4-5 months

6 months to have the necessary skill before even thinking about using it, not including the intensive drones skill that need to be train as well as core skills and tank skills.

Its simple, any racial carrier would take nowhere near as long to train as this monstrosity and be full slowcat ready and be much more used.

Short Answer NO

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#14 - 2014-08-11 09:20:11 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
To the OP, they probably get worse than this^^^ from here on in.
Do not let it discourage you, but this particular design is quite different from existing power levels, and that is it's attraction.
There may be a day when CCP decide that raising the power allowed in HS is valuable, and wishes to change the balance.

Take heart in the fact that CCP will see it, (and they probably stop reading when the trolls start) and when that day comes, your ideas may be the seed of the new events.

But like CCP, you should stop reading your thread much now, as about now is where the trolls start up to get you engaged in insane discussions to upset and confuse you as much as possible.Roll

Good luck.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#15 - 2014-08-11 17:29:43 UTC
NEONOVUS wrote:
The jump drive laws are just no cynos, so that is already settled. No capital weapons is good, but also frankly daft. You can fit capitals weapons to subcaps as is (abbadon with capital hybrid), so the easier way is just to leave the pg and cpu below capital weapons levels, actually you can also fit capital remote shield to a basilisk I think, was some random I wonder moment and then my wallet cried, the game cried, and my friend ran in terror and forgot the monster was to help him. So no, capital restrictions as hard codes are bad, just make it so people have to fit for them.


They are already hardcoded as something you cannot undock or refit to in space.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp