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Reason to roam, the raid

Author
Rosolo Refili
Flight of thee Damned
#1 - 2014-08-08 10:08:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Rosolo Refili
WARNING MASSIVE GENERALISATIONS

My main is part of the 'blue donut'

Been away for a while and come back for a few weeks now and joined a Null corp and like everyone else I think Null is broken. We went on a roam last night with 30 frigates/dictors of various kinds and needless to say the second our tackle entered the system it was instant warp to station and then just sit there and wait the ships (mostly) we did catch were fellow roamers in frigates and most could get out of dodge before we could lock them down, but most systems were totally empty. This is a week night in Eve Null roaming around or Ratting there is no reason to bring anything except a frigate because everything else is slow and big frigate roams will more than likely wipe them out. (maybe rightfully so).

The weekend comes and this is big fleet time, everyone gets in slightly bigger ships and goes on more roams to try and catch other fleets until they meet another fleet then are forced to run away because they have 100 more guys than you, or the small fleet you have been chasing but it turns out they are just going to run from them and every jump you catch another cruiser but your 100-150 man fleet just returns to your home system with apologies from the FC for a lame raid (most of the time)

The issues here TBH are obvious

1. There is no reason to use more than half of the types of ships in the game more than 90% of the time on raids
2. There is no real loss apart from a few minutes in station/safe stop cloaked until roam leaves system (nice toilet break)
3. Human beings are risk averse.
4. There is nothing I can do to the system I am in so there is no real advantage of going on a roam past skilling up (player skills not SP) and the fun of the odd kill

Here is a possible solution (please throw in some ideas to make it better if you wish)

Raids

A raid is when you go to an enemy system on a snatch and grab the basic idea is you cripple the systems holders ability to profit from the system by taking a small amount of the resources and damaging resource production in that system. Here are two examples

1. Moon Raker

You fly into system have to hack the POS mining the moon (using the hack skill better hackers/security will slow down or speed up the process) after you have hacked it the defences go down while tanking defences/fighting system owners etc. you can then take a smaller proportion of the resources than are what are currently stored in the POS and more importantly when you raid it then you are DESTROYING the other resources (only moon mined resources) that you aren't allowed to take with you. You would also need a cycle where moon mined mineral would basically no be available to the owner but could be taken by a raider and after that time is over the minerals move into a different part of the POS and can't be touched (like everything else)

This would need a really MIXED fleet scouts going through systems before looking for POS with lots of mined minerals in, BS/BC/Cruisers/Frigs/Transports to ensure you can tank defences/destroy tacklers so you can get your ill gotten gains out. It would also drop rental empires fees or forced the landlords to defend them better and more importantly you could get a lot of ISK from poorly defended systems with a High sec based corp starting to just raid into Null from high. It would also increase wardecs in High sec as Nullers may retaliate and make the game more interesting

2. Super Rat

The other large resource we see in Null being harvested to death is Rats 1.2M a pop is a lot of cash so here is a way of getting ratters interested in doing more than just jumping to station when a roam/raid comes in

In every system have a Super rat you can scan for when you warp to them there will be a Capital ship Rat with BS/Cruiser/Destroyer/Frigate support and a massive bounty on his head say 50M, this need to be a good fight so they will need to give the group good AI to properly EWAR the raiders and most of all a good tank on the Capital ship to ensure it isn't over quickly (unless there is a massive fleet) when the Super rat is killed only frigates will appear in system from then on until every downtime there would be a random chance of the Super rat respawning and the system returning to normal. This will require a large mixed fleet again because if you are fighting tanky tacklers you are going to be an easier target for another fleet to come in and hit you hard.

This basically has the same effect to as the other reasonable reward for attacking fleet but devastating loses for a day or so for the defender it would make larger empires harder to keep up and allow smaller corps a chance of getting the staging isk to attack a freshly weakened empire and would most of all make mixed fleets (which personally I love) very powerful in the meta

This also means before pulling the heavy caps into a system to start the boring task of Sov changed you can starve your enemy of resources first, like a real war

if you disagree you are boring ;) Sorry about the english
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#2 - 2014-08-08 11:30:28 UTC
some classic barbarian tactics ... raid and pillage .... its much needed the ability for small gangs too have an impact in the game .. hacking mechanic certainly makes sense too use here ... kind of links in with the SOV discussions .. if you don't defend it you lose it..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#3 - 2014-08-08 11:48:35 UTC
I think all of those points are already being discussed in various threads. The hacking in one, the Raids in another (though shot down as an implementation, rather as a player drven event as far as I remember), and the Sov regulations in many many threads.

Not sure I want to answer again in another thread besides mentioning to please take part in the other ones, definetely nothing new here.
Rosolo Refili
Flight of thee Damned
#4 - 2014-08-08 12:07:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Rosolo Refili
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
I think all of those points are already being discussed in various threads. The hacking in one, the Raids in another (though shot down as an implementation, rather as a player drven event as far as I remember), and the Sov regulations in many many threads.

Not sure I want to answer again in another thread besides mentioning to please take part in the other ones, definetely nothing new here.


How is that an implementation rather than a player driven event?

The whole thing needs to work together as a mechanic the PLAYERS drive to aid people get into PVP this wont actually change SOV directly you just saw the word SOV and went of half cocked!

Either read the post and comment or don't and don't
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#5 - 2014-08-08 12:16:01 UTC
Rosolo Refili wrote:
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
I think all of those points are already being discussed in various threads. The hacking in one, the Raids in another (though shot down as an implementation, rather as a player drven event as far as I remember), and the Sov regulations in many many threads.

Not sure I want to answer again in another thread besides mentioning to please take part in the other ones, definetely nothing new here.


How is that an implementation rather than a player driven event? Don't think you read my post

Because you can simulate it by player activity if you choose different means and 'rename' some things. The basic mechnic is there. Same as other 'raid' concepts which not really need a game mechanic implemented, but can be acchieven by two parties agreeing or one just doing whatever anyway. It's the sandbox, you wanna do something, do it. Rewards are what you make them, a matter of perception.
Remove Sov. Done.- That's another thread too btw..
Rosolo Refili
Flight of thee Damned
#6 - 2014-08-08 12:24:20 UTC
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
Rosolo Refili wrote:
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
I think all of those points are already being discussed in various threads. The hacking in one, the Raids in another (though shot down as an implementation, rather as a player drven event as far as I remember), and the Sov regulations in many many threads.

Not sure I want to answer again in another thread besides mentioning to please take part in the other ones, definetely nothing new here.


How is that an implementation rather than a player driven event? Don't think you read my post

Because you can simulate it by player activity if you choose different means and 'rename' some things. The basic mechnic is there. Same as other 'raid' concepts which not really need a game mechanic implemented, but can be acchieven by two parties agreeing or one just doing whatever anyway. It's the sandbox, you wanna do something, do it. Rewards are what you make them, a matter of perception.
Remove Sov. Done.- That's another thread too btw..


I really don't think you read my post you just saw the word RAID, what I suggest would require game mechanic changes

agreement between two parties? you aren't making sense
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#7 - 2014-08-08 12:30:42 UTC
If sov would be based on activity instead of anchored structures there would be a point of undocking in null for both offensive and defensive reasons. CCP Seagull said "they have plans" so let's hope it's something more then another deployable.

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Rosolo Refili
Flight of thee Damned
#8 - 2014-08-08 12:30:47 UTC
You would need to change

  • how ships interact with enemy POS,
  • you would need to change the Rat spawning mechanic and spawn a Super rat and his fleet
  • other balanced as required


expecting an enemy who has just had his system raided by a fleet to 'not rat' out of some mistaken sense of honour and then expect a fleet to hang around either outside a POS pretending they are hacking it or an asteroid belt while they pretend they are fighting a fight where part of their force are scrammed etc is probably not going to happen
Rosolo Refili
Flight of thee Damned
#9 - 2014-08-08 12:36:36 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
If sov would be based on activity instead of anchored structures there would be a point of undocking in null for both offensive and defensive reasons. CCP Seagull said "they have plans" so let's hope it's something more then another deployable.


Not really talking about Sov that would be a decent side effect though.

This is about giving people a reason to Roam rather than the kill mail/increase player experience
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#10 - 2014-08-08 12:37:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Fer'isam K'ahn
Rosolo Refili wrote:
I really don't think you read my post you just saw the word RAID, what I suggest would require game mechanic changes

agreement between two parties? you aren't making sense

I did, destroying resources, killing super rats, whatever, you can already do those things, they are just not registered as a counter to some invisible high score that evaluates 'the raid'. The influence is direct, if you want a PvE plaque to hold up for an acchievment I believe youa re in the wrong game - all the while pretending you do it for the good of PvP.... good for you.
Rosolo Refili
Flight of thee Damned
#11 - 2014-08-08 12:40:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Rosolo Refili
You really don't understand it's PVP

it's really simple

the system you are raiding in has a resource already Rat cash rewards or Moon mining as well as others

You go into the system THEY OWN steal some of their resources and destroy the rest for a time period

IT'S PVP a super rat kill reduces their earnings as ratting would become useless, raiding a player owned POS for mining minerals reduces their earnings on that mine. Both INCREASES your earning directly from the other player

The whole time they can attack you and you are prone

that's how most real wars are won and lost resource starvation!
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#12 - 2014-08-08 13:42:51 UTC
Rosolo Refili wrote:
You really don't understand it's PVP

it's really simple

the system you are raiding in has a resource already Rat cash rewards or Moon mining as well as others

You go into the system THEY OWN steal some of their resources and destroy the rest for a time period

While you can already occupy and blockade the system and destroy/steal the resources.

Quote:
IT'S PVP a super rat kill reduces their earnings as ratting would become useless, raiding a player owned POS for mining minerals reduces their earnings on that mine. Both INCREASES your earning directly from the other player

You could also kill the rats before they can, or hunt them down while ratting or forcing them to dock... already possible.

Quote:
The whole time they can attack you and you are prone

Which they can do anyhow if they choose to.

Quote:
That's how most real wars are won and lost resource starvation!

Which you can already acchieve, just with greater efford.

What you want is PvP served on a platter while otherwise inhibiting other players game experience... forced gameplay = No.
You work for it, they work for it. The same complains, "buhuhu, no stabs in plexes, can't get kills" or other situatioin where conflict is forced on one side to the benefit of another. 0.0 is lawless space, so remove all laws, not create new ones┬░┬░.

Besides that, how is that not exploited by 'raid' farmers with big fleets or multiboxed, that jsut travel like a swarm on set times and farm those locations, while nobody is willing to fight them (remember, fights mostly happen only if victory is assured) and the 'owners' move to other places or chose different times to log in. We got the same problem in otherplaces with certain timers and respawn points where they are being farmed by one gropu and nobody can prevent them during the limited window and only suffers from superior numbers, which is contra to your want of smaller pvp roams/gangs and anit blob demands.

... back to you Jim.

Rosolo Refili
Flight of thee Damned
#13 - 2014-08-08 14:10:53 UTC
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
What you want is PvP served on a platter while otherwise inhibiting other players game experience... forced gameplay = No.


HAHAHAHAHA

Looks like we found a null renting carebear's alt

If you have SOV in a system there is FORCED gameplay that forced gameplay is on a number of levels let me show you two

1. You warp your carebear boat to the station when another player comes through and complain to your mummy that the big boys are playing rough outside and she says stay in here and have a cookie until they leave
2. A very large fleet comes through and takes control of your system in the most mind numbing 'battle' of your life they call it grinding for a reason they eventually take over your system after a long period of an activity less exciting than mining.

these are both forced mechanics even a PVE boat in Empire has forced mechanics placed on it.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=eve+online+gank&l=1

if you don't want forced mechanics don't play eve

My suggestion isn't PVP on a plate, its a financial incentive (like it the real world) to mess with people and a much larger one to defend your territory.

If a large fleet comes through then that large fleet isn't defending their own territory and lots of smaller fleets will have a good chance to raid them, remember my suggestion is to give people LESS resource when they are raiding than the owner may have got it. If they are from High sec and don't want to move into null which the extra resources will allow them to do if they are farming Null then let the wardec commence.

0.0 is lawless space and in lawless space I should be able to do whatever I want this will enable more gameplay not take some away

thanks for finally reading my POST :)
Samuel Wess
Doomheim
#14 - 2014-08-08 14:43:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Samuel Wess
Roaming was good when resources were scattered and people were spread, and they had reasons to be in asteroid belts. What works now is afk cloaky camps and awox, none that i like.

Walk into the club like "What up? I got a big cockpit!"

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#15 - 2014-08-08 15:31:59 UTC
is the moon raker like a siphon unit?

a big bounty rat will not make anything different. not only is 50mil a pittance to fight over, but null sec ratters are able to rat unmolested for the vast majority of the time they are online. Why would they come out to fight over a single rat when they can just let the invaders have that one, then wait for them to leave and have the next 10 such rats to themselves with no risk?

why dont the raiders come into system and just clear the anoms? it does the exact same thing but without giving null bears a blingier rat to make even more money off.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#16 - 2014-08-08 17:13:52 UTC
For the super rat, perhaps have it take longer the better the systems truesec.
That is the lore is the rat is very high ranking and they kind of need to find how this kill happened, the more important, the longer it takes.

This way you would have a more permanent effect, perhaps a 24 hours +ran(24*system sec) so that you could get it back a little bit the next day or you may not have it for 11 days.

This way when the rat is kill, you have to find a new system, and with their only being so many ratting systems, people will need to move around. More risk, more reward, more profit.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#17 - 2014-08-08 17:58:05 UTC
I personally believe it should be possible to knock out all null-sec station services with only a handful of frigates in the space of a minute... that way you encourage people to come out and fight, but you still cannot force them to.

Honestly... HP for all null-sec structures should be reduced to the point where small roaming gangs can take them out with ease... basically forcing null-sec residents to have defending forces on standby at all times.
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#18 - 2014-08-08 18:01:45 UTC
Rosolo Refili wrote:

HAHAHAHAHA
Looks like we found a null renting carebear's alt

You couldn't be more wrong - and nice going defeating the false stawman you built up (wait, is a false strawman actually the right dude?! Aeh, no)

Anyway, said what I came to say.

o7
stoicfaux
#19 - 2014-08-08 18:03:28 UTC
Apply FW mechanics to Sov space?



Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Rosolo Refili
Flight of thee Damned
#20 - 2014-08-11 11:06:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Rosolo Refili
Daichi Yamato wrote:
is the moon raker like a siphon unit?

a big bounty rat will not make anything different. not only is 50mil a pittance to fight over, but null sec ratters are able to rat unmolested for the vast majority of the time they are online. Why would they come out to fight over a single rat when they can just let the invaders have that one, then wait for them to leave and have the next 10 such rats to themselves with no risk?

why dont the raiders come into system and just clear the anoms? it does the exact same thing but without giving null bears a blingier rat to make even more money off.


the moon raker would be more of a snatch and grab the whole point is small gains for the attacker and larger loses for the defender


The SUPER rat idea was that rats in that system for a random period after it is killed will be only frigates so decrease the worth of ratting in that system after.

It would have to be sufficiently large I am talking capital ship or even a NPC structure with very hard defences it's a way of damaging ratting in the system
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