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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Random WHs and the New Small Ship WHs

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The Feuror
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#201 - 2014-08-07 23:32:18 UTC  |  Edited by: The Feuror
Although I'm all about change and trying to make the game different or "better" can we focus on things that are broken or missing in WH space before we start worrying about being able to have frig fights?


#Cloneswap2014

VVOOF is recruiting able pvpers for WH BLOPS operations
Bibosikus
Air
#202 - 2014-08-07 23:50:51 UTC
Multi-bubble Hictors loaded with Mobile Depots..

Taking their time to refit pointy-wise while the inties have nailed the targets..

Love it :)

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
Daenika
Chambers of Shaolin
#203 - 2014-08-08 00:05:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Daenika
Quote:
Unless I am mistaken the second rule of EVE is don't fly what you can't afford to lose. The first rule is that no place is truly safe. Did you not understand these two rules when you bought your implants?


There's a difference between between being able to afford to lose them (and being resigned to the fact that that may happen some day), and recklessly dumping those implants into situations where loss is extremely likely. Risk/reward calculations are a thing. If I have a billion isk in my head (I don't, but if I did), the risk part of the equation for a frigate roam just went way up, while reward stayed the same. As a result, I'm much less likely to engage in such a roam.

Give me a way to mitigate the risk of loss of those crazy expensive implants (even if I'm still risking my cheaper implants and my frigate), and the likelihood of me engaging in such activity goes up considerable.
Eviscerator Void
Chaos State
#204 - 2014-08-08 01:15:27 UTC
I feel like wormhole life should feel like living in deep deep space. Isolated and hard to get to. You have to plan ahead and be very careful with your logistics to live there. Of course there's pvp but I don't feel like that's the defining aspect or biggest challenge of wspace.

I don't see how increasing connectivity will improve pvp. Those hunting will be hunting and those evading (logistics) will be evading. Whether you go through this k162 or that one makes no difference.

What it will do is make logistics of living in wspace much easier. So it actually ends up being less risk for the same reward. So I feel like these changes are misguided.

Being a fan of small ships I like the concept of frig/dessie holes. However I think we should actually trade a certain number of larger holes for these. DECREASING access will make the holes that do pop up bottlenecks and that will definitely drive pvp up as corps will fight over access.
Gavin Dax
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#205 - 2014-08-08 02:41:05 UTC
IMO EVE needs more incentives for people to fly BS and BC class... not frigs. This change just will mean more annoying huge frig blobs, but won't do anything to increase the amount of GFs people have in WH space.
Kirasten
Perkone
Caldari State
#206 - 2014-08-08 03:51:43 UTC
Snakes-On-A-Plane wrote:
I feel like I should point out that a mobile depot allows access to infinitely sized Hictor combat fleets. 2000 Phobos (Phobi?) could come through a hole and refit to 100% guns. A much more powerful force than frigates alone.

I'm not sure if that's a problem, since it would take time to move that way and it would be a slow force. It'd also have a weak point in that any logi support would be frigates only. But I thought it might be worth mentioning.


This is something I am failing to get. People see no problem with a dictor going through, but somehow a heavy dictor might change the game? These holes don't open into some frigate only wormhole. You are going to find cruisers and hics and whatever else on the other side when you get there.

Additionally, if a hic refits to weapons after they jump through, they have now cut off their own escape route.

I don't see this as an issue.
Zweruga Xronys
Peacefull Fortress
#207 - 2014-08-08 04:07:21 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
IF CCP can create a pos module for clone "swapping".. this is easily a 10/10.

If they cannot, this is a 1/10.


Not necessarily module pos, it can be Rorqular. Need only allow transfer of it clone to any point of space. it will be a better development of functionality of Rorqular.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#208 - 2014-08-08 04:47:20 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone! This thread is for all of your feedback and discussion surrounding the increase in random wormhole spawning and introduction of the new small ship wormholes that we announced in our recently released dev blog.


Dunno if this has already been answered but are you talking about some new wormhole systems themselves where the only incoming/outgoing connections are this new low-mass/jump type or are you specifically creating new connections only?
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#209 - 2014-08-08 04:49:11 UTC
Gavin Dax wrote:
IMO EVE needs more incentives for people to fly BS and BC class... not frigs. This change just will mean more annoying huge frig blobs, but won't do anything to increase the amount of GFs people have in WH space.


Well really battleships are supposed to be wielded at a fleet/gang level only. Solo battleships are not really a "thing" or at least they're not meant to be. Vessels like the machariel and kronos if you will might be your exceptions but that's not really fair since they're of limited supply over the much more easily constructed t1 ships.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#210 - 2014-08-08 07:39:45 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Fozzie, please cancel the small ship wormhole idea until you have some new content deserving of this new connection.

There is no need/place for this given the current mechanics/content. This new low mass wormhole would be better suited as a gateway to a new class of wormhole designed for frigates.


Bump

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
JN Jarvis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#211 - 2014-08-08 09:24:24 UTC
Only thing that came to my mind when I read this, since its NS->WH only, was the blobs of interceptor and assault frig fleets that'll come from NS...don't think it matters how many capitals you have if your foe can keep swarming you with frig sized ships through a hole that can't be collapsed.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#212 - 2014-08-08 10:58:13 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone! This thread is for all of your feedback and discussion surrounding the increase in random wormhole spawning and introduction of the new small ship wormholes that we announced in our recently released dev blog.


Dunno if this has already been answered but are you talking about some new wormhole systems themselves where the only incoming/outgoing connections are this new low-mass/jump type or are you specifically creating new connections only?



Actually that is a really good idea, if there were holes that could only be accessed and discovered in this manner, possibly more wolf raylets, that could be a really really interesting addition to eve, lets see if it's possible to set up home in them and how to do it.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#213 - 2014-08-08 11:33:46 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
I'll bring this up because it needs to be said.

Should these uncloseable frig wormholes be able to have a anytype of kspace (in this case, nullsec) connection?

We are not talking about any type of newbie friendly activity here, and the main concern is a flood of hundreds and hundreds of frigates wadding down a wormhole corp.

Should these be able to connect to nullsec? Because currently, they can.


I'm going to quote myself because not enough attention went to this part of it, and this part of it is the most significant point.

Should these wormholes at any point ever go to nullsec?

I'm sure this wasn't the idea wormholers had, and this introduces the concept of mass numbers raiding a micro wormhole corporation (heck even the largest wormhole corp couldn't deal with the swarm of ships coming through an unsealable hole in nullsec.

Yaay!!!!
Jez Amatin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#214 - 2014-08-08 12:32:29 UTC
If only smartbombs could be used at 0 on a WH Twisted
Komodo Askold
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#215 - 2014-08-08 12:34:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Komodo Askold
More random WH's, that looks nice, although time will say if that means increasing conectivity too much.

New small ship WH's... They look very interesting, although they're also potentially cataclysmic, especially since they are virtually un-collapsable. Time will say, too.
On the other hand, they do open funny content:

- For frigates and destroyers: flying small, fast ships in a swarm and use them for wreaking havoc is funny and easy/cheap to do. Especially if you happen to land on one of the new Wolf-Rayets...

- For battleships and other large ships: I'd personally take a group of smartbombing BS' and put them close to the new WH, and start cycling the smartbombs as soon as I hear the "jumping through" sound. Can end up laughing like a maniac, especially if you are in a Red Giant...

EDIT: That said, I find the regenerating abilty of these WH's dangerously close to WH Stabilizers. I think the fact they can only allow small ships but have good total mass capacity fine enough for allowing lots of small ships to fit through and back, and only them. That mass limit could still be increased a bit, if we remove the regeneration.
Daenika
Chambers of Shaolin
#216 - 2014-08-08 15:10:43 UTC
Quote:
Only thing that came to my mind when I read this, since its NS->WH only


People need to learn to read, I've seen this comment a LOT in here. These wormholes are not WH->NS only. Here's the quote from the blog:

Quote:
These new small ship wormholes will only originate in W-space systems, and can lead to any other W-space systems or to nullsec space.
Udonor
Doomheim
#217 - 2014-08-08 15:11:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Udonor
How about making wh connection spawns totally invisible UNLESS you got appropriate probes out?

Evil IF they cannot DScan you they should never know you are there until you uncloak to fire. Evil

It should at least take a ship fitted and actively using probes plus good voice comm to spoil the surprise of a cloaked fleet busting through a newly spawned WH.

Shocked As is even a solo miner can see a newly opened wh connection and take cover. Shocked


OR at least make SOME WHs with fainter signatures require some skill and equipment to detect.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#218 - 2014-08-08 15:17:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenix Jones
Komodo Askold wrote:
More random WH's, that looks nice, although time will say if that means increasing conectivity too much.

New small ship WH's... They look very interesting, although they're also potentially cataclysmic, especially since they are virtually un-collapsable. Time will say, too.
On the other hand, they do open funny content:

- For frigates and destroyers: flying small, fast ships in a swarm and use them for wreaking havoc is funny and easy/cheap to do. Especially if you happen to land on one of the new Wolf-Rayets...

- For battleships and other large ships: I'd personally take a group of smartbombing BS' and put them close to the new WH, and start cycling the smartbombs as soon as I hear the "jumping through" sound. Can end up laughing like a maniac, especially if you are in a Red Giant...

EDIT: That said, I find the regenerating abilty of these WH's dangerously close to WH Stabilizers. I think the fact they can only allow small ships but have good total mass capacity fine enough for allowing lots of small ships to fit through and back, and only them. That mass limit could still be increased a bit, if we remove the regeneration.


Lets do some finger math

Lets use a C1 wormhole.

max amount of mass through, 500,000,000 (for reference, a orca is 250,000,000.)
Max Mass That can fit in 1 go, 20,000,000 (for reference, this is the max mass of a retriever)
It would potentially take 25 retrievers passes to collapse the hole.
If 5 players were online, and they did the passes in succession, it would take approximately 25 to 30 minutes to collapse a C1.

Now lets take the typical destroyer for reference.

Assuming that this new hole can only accept at most a Destroyer, and the typical destroyer averages out at 1,500,000. We can figure that the max mass of these new wormholes would be about 2 million Mass (or 2,000,000) that can fit Maxed.

lets say it uses the C1 wormhole cap of 500,000,000.

Lets also assume you've maxed out your ship at 2,000,000 mass (the max).

Its allot of assuptions but lets say you did exactly that.

To close the current C1 wormhole, you would have to run 250 (yes Two Hundred and Fifty) max mass ships through it.

That is the basic theory base.

Now lets assume that CCP creates these holes and they add regeneration but slash the capacity by a Whole Bunch (lets say they set it at 20 million Max Mass before the wormhole potentially collapses).

You could role through 10 max mass ships (or more as people won't generally hit 2 million mass) before the hole cannot sustain another.

Currently what is listed (or what isn't shown), is that there is no control over what comes in "basically, there is no cap", and as these wormholes regenerate with the concept that they are unsealable, it is assumed they will regenerate mass very Quickly (to prevent closure, you would have to regenerate just over 2 million Mass per server tick).

Which means the theoretical 10 max mass ships through is out the door. You could fit as much as you want.

The difference between the examples I put up is this.

1) Current wormhole mechanics ALREADY allow for this type of gameplay and this type of flying
2) The only benefit brought is that there is essentially a frigate stargate for wormholes now.

I get the concept you are aiming here, but there has to be sometype of flood control for this to work out.

In wormhole space, you are probably looking at a max of 10.. maybe 15 pilots going out to do these types of frigate roams. Cater the hole to small group gameplay and not massive blobs of frigates.

Some method of flood control/flow control needs to be implemented.

Yaay!!!!
Udonor
Doomheim
#219 - 2014-08-08 15:34:16 UTC
I really like the idea of persistent WH that self-heal such that collapsing is near impossible.


BUT you should also throw in more variability as to Lifetimes,

Twisted Specifically expedite POS attacks by having some wh connections last up to 2-3 days. Twisted
Right now its a pretty byzantine process even for vastly superior forces to follow up on driving a POS into reinforcement.

In general make WH lifetimes variable enough that its harder for enemy WH settlers to just log off and set clocks on when to resume ops. Hopefully hard enough that they just give up evading and acknowledge the need to just stand up and fight all visitors.

Idea Perhaps some WH spawns should not even have a predictable lifetime - except no more than 3 days and at least 15 minutes more if collapse is not IMMINENT. Idea

Twisted SImilarly it would be very interest if a common random WH type did not have a predictable maximum mass limit. Twisted
That convoy or massive invasion fleet might get cut in half.

(off topic a bit)

or maybe in the future certain class of wormhole can be collapsed prematurely by a singularity cannon but only within a few seconds of sizeable ship transiting. Hmmm...singularity cannon might be a bomb or a siege weapon requiring a ship immobilized in siege mode.
Udonor
Doomheim
#220 - 2014-08-08 15:39:58 UTC
Oh and how about adding a damage effect to certain types of WH connections if collapsed by mass?
(gravity waves and radiation burst -- plus lots of sparkly light ...maybe visible system wide and visible on overview as lockable beacon for 15 seconds)

Last ship that causes collapse takes damage dependent on WH type and ship size/type.

Or maybe ships within 5-10km on one or both sides of collapsing WH.