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Is everyone manufacturing at a loss? (T2 Sentries)
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Van Kuzco
Perkone
Caldari State
#1 - 2014-08-07 19:01:31 UTC
Due to the increased material cost (in quantity) and subsequent price drop for T2 Sentries, every single one is being produced/sold at a loss according to http://eve-industry.org/calc/.

I also produce from a POS at a system with .01 cost index.

I'm quite confused and I feel like I'm completely missing something?
BlueWo1f
BlueWo1f Corp
#2 - 2014-08-07 20:35:59 UTC
Theres always been lots of loss making items because people are idiots.

Sentries generally fluctuated from little to no profit to decent profit but yeah alot of items at the moment are running at a loss while stocks clear; apparently people are still dumping rather than waiting for the prices to naturally increase.
BlueWo1f
BlueWo1f Corp
#3 - 2014-08-07 20:40:06 UTC
Theres always been lots of loss making items because people are idiots.

Sentries generally fluctuated from little to no profit to decent profit but yeah alot of items at the moment are running at a loss while stocks clear; apparently people are still dumping rather than waiting for the prices to naturally increase.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#4 - 2014-08-07 21:14:52 UTC
I'm still selling pre-Crius sentries at a profit *shrug*

I expect others are also selling from pre-Crius stockpiles.
Van Kuzco
Perkone
Caldari State
#5 - 2014-08-07 21:22:27 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
I'm still selling pre-Crius sentries at a profit *shrug*

I expect others are also selling from pre-Crius stockpiles.


Yeah luckily I had quite a big stockpile as well. But I realized it was a bit pointless to produce more unless I just planned to keep stockpiling.

I think some people just didn't notice that the materials for producing drones increased?
Guidance Systems 30 -> 49
Robotics 30 -> 49
Morphite 30 -> 49
Variable 20 -> 29
George Gouillot
MASS
Pandemic Horde
#6 - 2014-08-07 22:49:44 UTC
Depends on your calculation and how you value throughput. I can still build sentries with a margin but it is far below my acceptable ROCE. But if you have them built before Crius, why are you selling now unless you need liquidity? They will go north for sure (TM)
Veinnail
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7 - 2014-08-08 02:51:41 UTC
this is not only a drone issue, MANY builders are either

A. producing and taking a loss
B. selling the phantom stockpile
C. relocated to lower index and facing lower throughput.
Van Kuzco
Perkone
Caldari State
#8 - 2014-08-08 05:14:58 UTC
Veinnail wrote:
this is not only a drone issue, MANY builders are either

A. producing and taking a loss
B. selling the phantom stockpile
C. relocated to lower index and facing lower throughput.


I'm so confused why people would produce and take a loss. In regards to the lower index, it's not usually a determining factor in an item being profitable or not(for sentries at least).
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2014-08-08 07:35:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Jarnis McPieksu
This is with ME -10% component blueprints and self-built components / T1 parts, built in Jita. 10 unit run. No price set for BPC / datacores so slightly overstating profit margin.

TLDR: Slim profits, I wouldn't build these but not making a loss. If pre-patch material costs were considerably lower, I could totally see current price point being just fine.


Bouncer II

Job Install Cost 531 701.91 ISK
Manufacture cost (All Runs): 7 414 477.37 ISK
Manufacture cost one unit: 741 447.74 ISK
Minimum sell cost (All Runs): 7 562 766.91 ISK
Minimum sell cost one unit: 756 276.69 ISK
Market profit (All Runs): 775 567.27 ISK
Market profit one unit: 77 556.73 ISK

ISK/h: 95 045.01 ISK
Profit %: 10.46%

Warden II

Job Install Cost 538 160.49 ISK
Manufacture cost (All Runs): 7 422 136.74 ISK
Manufacture cost one unit: 742 213.67 ISK
Minimum sell cost (All Runs): 7 570 579.47 ISK
Minimum sell cost one unit: 757 057.95 ISK
Market profit (All Runs): 1 390 230.83 ISK
Market profit one unit: 139 023.08 ISK

ISK/h: 170 371.43 ISK
Profit %: 18.73%
# of units: 10

Curator II

Job Install Cost 476 295.20 ISK
Manufacture cost (All Runs): 7 348 292.94 ISK
Manufacture cost one unit: 734 829.29 ISK
Minimum sell cost (All Runs): 7 495 258.80 ISK
Minimum sell cost one unit: 749 525.88 ISK
Market profit (All Runs): 1 473 964.39 ISK
Market profit one unit: 147 396.44 ISK

ISK/h: 180 632.89 ISK
Profit %: 20.06%
# of units: 10

Garde II

Job Install Cost 558 902.20 ISK
Manufacture cost (All Runs): 7 479 227.53 ISK
Manufacture cost one unit: 747 922.75 ISK
Minimum sell cost (All Runs): 7 628 812.08 ISK
Minimum sell cost one unit: 762 881.21 ISK
Market profit (All Runs): 1 036 928.47 ISK
Market profit one unit: 103 692.85 ISK

ISK/h: 127 074.57 ISK
Profit %: 13.86%
# of units: 10
Van Kuzco
Perkone
Caldari State
#10 - 2014-08-08 07:42:31 UTC
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:
This is with ME -10% component blueprints and self-built components / T1 parts, built in Jita. 10 unit run. No price set for BPC / datacores so slightly overstating profit margin.

TLDR: Slim profits, I wouldn't build these but not making a loss. If pre-patch material costs were considerably lower, I could totally see current price point being just fine.


Bouncer II

Job Install Cost 531 701.91 ISK
Manufacture cost (All Runs): 7 414 477.37 ISK
Manufacture cost one unit: 741 447.74 ISK
Minimum sell cost (All Runs): 7 562 766.91 ISK
Minimum sell cost one unit: 756 276.69 ISK
Market profit (All Runs): 775 567.27 ISK
Market profit one unit: 77 556.73 ISK

ISK/h: 95 045.01 ISK
Profit %: 10.46%

Warden II

Job Install Cost 538 160.49 ISK
Manufacture cost (All Runs): 7 422 136.74 ISK
Manufacture cost one unit: 742 213.67 ISK
Minimum sell cost (All Runs): 7 570 579.47 ISK
Minimum sell cost one unit: 757 057.95 ISK
Market profit (All Runs): 1 390 230.83 ISK
Market profit one unit: 139 023.08 ISK

ISK/h: 170 371.43 ISK
Profit %: 18.73%
# of units: 10

Curator II

Job Install Cost 476 295.20 ISK
Manufacture cost (All Runs): 7 348 292.94 ISK
Manufacture cost one unit: 734 829.29 ISK
Minimum sell cost (All Runs): 7 495 258.80 ISK
Minimum sell cost one unit: 749 525.88 ISK
Market profit (All Runs): 1 473 964.39 ISK
Market profit one unit: 147 396.44 ISK

ISK/h: 180 632.89 ISK
Profit %: 20.06%
# of units: 10

Garde II

Job Install Cost 558 902.20 ISK
Manufacture cost (All Runs): 7 479 227.53 ISK
Manufacture cost one unit: 747 922.75 ISK
Minimum sell cost (All Runs): 7 628 812.08 ISK
Minimum sell cost one unit: 762 881.21 ISK
Market profit (All Runs): 1 036 928.47 ISK
Market profit one unit: 103 692.85 ISK

ISK/h: 127 074.57 ISK
Profit %: 13.86%
# of units: 10



I don't see the invention costs in there? Unless you are working from a T2 BPO.
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2014-08-08 07:43:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Jarnis McPieksu
Yes, these were calculated with no invention costs.

Made a quick-and-dirty calc and about 1 million per BPC at 5-4-4 skills. BPC copy costs and invention job costs are trivially small. So reduce 1 million ISK from each "profit".

Edit: ...and yes, it kinda eats up the margin. I do not think any are still "at a loss", but I agree that profits are pretty much non-existant.
Van Kuzco
Perkone
Caldari State
#12 - 2014-08-08 08:10:34 UTC
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:
Yes, these were calculated with no invention costs.

Made a quick-and-dirty calc and about 1 million per BPC at 5-4-4 skills. BPC copy costs and invention job costs are trivially small. So reduce 1 million ISK from each "profit".

Edit: ...and yes, it kinda eats up the margin. I do not think any are still "at a loss", but I agree that profits are pretty much non-existant.


For those skills I'm seeing a 1.35 mil invention cost. That makes bouncers and grardes both negative and practically eliminating the profits on the others. If you are building from components it's even worse.
Team Bidders
Doomheim
#13 - 2014-08-08 15:04:03 UTC
So, if you guys move out of Jita and set up a POS, you can save a lot of job installation cost and increase your profit.

Also, Jarnis McOieksu is right about not adding invention cost for 2 reasons:

1. T2 BPCs which have been invented are the money already spent (i.e. "sunk cost" in Economics). If you have a lot of T2 BPCs, you have to either i) press on and finish production (so that you can at least get some money back) or ii) sell your T2 BPCs to another palyer (I wonder how much they are willing to pay).

If I were in this situation, I will probably finish all the T2 BPCs I have but I will definitely stop inventing any new T2 BPCs.

2. Don't forget that T2 BPOs still exist post-Crius. The owners of T2 BPO will keep producing at a profit.
Van Kuzco
Perkone
Caldari State
#14 - 2014-08-08 20:10:58 UTC
Team Bidders wrote:
So, if you guys move out of Jita and set up a POS, you can save a lot of job installation cost and increase your profit.

Also, Jarnis McOieksu is right about not adding invention cost for 2 reasons:

1. T2 BPCs which have been invented are the money already spent (i.e. "sunk cost" in Economics). If you have a lot of T2 BPCs, you have to either i) press on and finish production (so that you can at least get some money back) or ii) sell your T2 BPCs to another palyer (I wonder how much they are willing to pay).

If I were in this situation, I will probably finish all the T2 BPCs I have but I will definitely stop inventing any new T2 BPCs.

2. Don't forget that T2 BPOs still exist post-Crius. The owners of T2 BPO will keep producing at a profit.



The sunk cost would only apply if a person is planning on completely stopping manufacturing and trashing the blueprints otherwise. Anyone who is inventing/manufacturing to sell at the moment is probably just doing the math wrong.

Of course T2 BPOs will always produce at a profit, but in an area where the volume is so high, T2 BPOs do not have much an effect on the market.
Team Bidders
Doomheim
#15 - 2014-08-08 21:47:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Team Bidders
Van Kuzco wrote:
Team Bidders wrote:
So, if you guys move out of Jita and set up a POS, you can save a lot of job installation cost and increase your profit.

Also, Jarnis McOieksu is right about not adding invention cost for 2 reasons:

1. T2 BPCs which have been invented are the money already spent (i.e. "sunk cost" in Economics). If you have a lot of T2 BPCs, you have to either i) press on and finish production (so that you can at least get some money back) or ii) sell your T2 BPCs to another palyer (I wonder how much they are willing to pay).

If I were in this situation, I will probably finish all the T2 BPCs I have but I will definitely stop inventing any new T2 BPCs.

2. Don't forget that T2 BPOs still exist post-Crius. The owners of T2 BPO will keep producing at a profit.



The sunk cost would only apply if a person is planning on completely stopping manufacturing and trashing the blueprints otherwise. Anyone who is inventing/manufacturing to sell at the moment is probably just doing the math wrong.

Of course T2 BPOs will always produce at a profit, but in an area where the volume is so high, T2 BPOs do not have much an effect on the market.


So, if I had 10 T2 BPCs in my hangar which I had spent 13 millions to invent, what are my options?

Should I

(a) throw them away?
(b) tear down my POS and wait for the market to recover?
(c) finish manufacturing them so that I can get at least 7M back?
(d) find some idiots to buy them at 13 millions?
(e) file a petition and ask for 13 million back?
Termy Rockling
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2014-08-08 23:16:44 UTC
f) make something profitable and wait with your bpcs, unless you reallyreally need that 13m.
Van Kuzco
Perkone
Caldari State
#17 - 2014-08-08 23:47:55 UTC
Termy Rockling wrote:
f) make something profitable and wait with your bpcs, unless you reallyreally need that 13m.


Yup. Unless that person is stopping manufacturing entirely there is really no point in just saving the BPCs or actually manufacturing them but keep them off the market until it becomes profitable.
Team Bidders
Doomheim
#18 - 2014-08-09 00:11:46 UTC
Termy Rockling wrote:
f) make something profitable and wait with your bpcs, unless you reallyreally need that 13m.


Why am I whining on a public forum if I had found something profitable to make?

Oh, wait. I am not......
rand paul 4president
i'm from the government and i'm here to help
#19 - 2014-08-09 14:05:53 UTC
Team Bidders wrote:
Van Kuzco wrote:
Team Bidders wrote:
So, if you guys move out of Jita and set up a POS, you can save a lot of job installation cost and increase your profit.

Also, Jarnis McOieksu is right about not adding invention cost for 2 reasons:

1. T2 BPCs which have been invented are the money already spent (i.e. "sunk cost" in Economics). If you have a lot of T2 BPCs, you have to either i) press on and finish production (so that you can at least get some money back) or ii) sell your T2 BPCs to another palyer (I wonder how much they are willing to pay).

If I were in this situation, I will probably finish all the T2 BPCs I have but I will definitely stop inventing any new T2 BPCs.

2. Don't forget that T2 BPOs still exist post-Crius. The owners of T2 BPO will keep producing at a profit.



The sunk cost would only apply if a person is planning on completely stopping manufacturing and trashing the blueprints otherwise. Anyone who is inventing/manufacturing to sell at the moment is probably just doing the math wrong.

Of course T2 BPOs will always produce at a profit, but in an area where the volume is so high, T2 BPOs do not have much an effect on the market.


So, if I had 10 T2 BPCs in my hangar which I had spent 13 millions to invent, what are my options?

Should I

(a) throw them away?
(b) tear down my POS and wait for the market to recover?
(c) finish manufacturing them so that I can get at least 7M back?
(d) find some idiots to buy them at 13 millions?
(e) file a petition and ask for 13 million back?



build them and wait, unless you need the liquidity. enough said
Team Bidders
Doomheim
#20 - 2014-08-09 19:13:31 UTC
rand paul 4president wrote:
Team Bidders wrote:


So, if I had 10 T2 BPCs in my hangar which I had spent 13 millions to invent, what are my options?

Should I

(a) throw them away?
(b) tear down my POS and wait for the market to recover?
(c) finish manufacturing them so that I can get at least 7M back?
(d) find some idiots to buy them at 13 millions?
(e) file a petition and ask for 13 million back?


build them and wait, unless you need the liquidity. enough said



So, instead of having 13 millions stuck in the BPCs, I wll have 90+ millions stuck in finished goods?

That's a really brialliant idea!
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