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Mining Corps With PvE Branches. Has Anyone Seen This Work?
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Yarda Black
The Black Redemption
#61 - 2014-08-06 07:31:49 UTC
ACY GTMI wrote:

I have a question about that D-Scan thing, though. The overview shows you if there is an un-cloaked ship within 150 km. D-scan doesn't show cloaked ships. What's the difference?


D-scan has a much longer range than your overview. It will show the same things (if you tick that box - which you should). D-scan wont show cloaked ships either. But here's the thing:

You're mining. +1 in local all of a sudden. Whats he in? Do we hunt or do we move. Is he coming closer? Has he deployed probes? Were you in scanrange of the gate and did you "catch" what cloaky he is in before he cloaked?

D-scan gives information of your surrounding beyond the range of your overview. Information is power.

Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#62 - 2014-08-06 07:39:48 UTC
Yarda Black wrote:
Information is power.


And here come intel channels: chats where all your friends in area can warn you about possible hostiles or gank targets.
That's why it's good to have friends even if you are "solo" multiboxing ice belt crunching monster :)

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ACY GTMI
Veerhouven Group
#63 - 2014-08-06 07:48:13 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
ACY GTMI wrote:
I have a question about that D-Scan thing, though. The overview shows you if there is an un-cloaked ship within 150 km. D-scan doesn't show cloaked ships. What's the difference?


Well, difference is like between radar and your own eyes: if it's cloaked you won't see it and radar won't bounce its ray off of it (cloaks in Eve are not like stealth in RL, they hide you absolutely). And 150km is not exact value, you see ships/objects on grid up to that grid boundary and grid boundaries can be manipulated.

Also overview shows you only things that are of one of types you selected in Filters and have ALL states you selected in States in overview settings. D-scan shows you everything you selected in Filters but it doesn't take States into account. So you might see your corpies on d-scan while you don't see them in your "pvp" overview tab (usually it's not a good idea to have your corp/alliance/blues in same tab as things you can/should shoot at).

And another thing: d-scan doesn't show you things like asteroids, beacons, large collidable objects and such even if you have them selected in your overview settings. But it will show you probes, corpses, wrecks, cargo containers and of course celestials, stations, towers and other POS stuff and of course ships.


TYVM.

One more question though. I read the Goonie bumphlet on 'Grid Fu' and it shows how to make the area you can see on the overview large, and a lot of other interesting things. But I've never heard of making it smaller.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#64 - 2014-08-06 07:56:00 UTC
Probably because you can only escalate things in Eve, grid, fights, ego :)

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ACY GTMI
Veerhouven Group
#65 - 2014-08-06 10:11:03 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Probably because you can only escalate things in Eve, grid, fights, ego :)



Well said. :)
ACY GTMI
Veerhouven Group
#66 - 2014-08-06 10:51:07 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Yarda Black wrote:
Information is power.


And here come intel channels: chats where all your friends in area can warn you about possible hostiles or gank targets.
That's why it's good to have friends even if you are "solo" multiboxing ice belt crunching monster :)


I don't know how many Intel channels I have been thrown out of for being arrogant. :)

In other words, questioning the status quo.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#67 - 2014-08-06 10:57:15 UTC
Well, intel channels are for intel. For general stuff you have other chats/comms. All is good with small talk until it prevents you from noticing warning that's why intel channels usually are very quiet and if you see those tabs blinking you know you really should take a look.

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Velicitia
XS Tech
#68 - 2014-08-06 12:04:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
ACY GTMI wrote:
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
ACY GTMI wrote:

Let me try to simplify the question.

Suppose you want mining to include more strife.

Suppose you want mining corps to actually go to war, or ganking, over the belts they want to mine.

That is the part that suggests having PvErs in mining corps.

Is there anyone at all who thinks that would improve the game?

Mining corporations need PvErs for normal operations like fish need bicycles.

PvErs don't understand miners, and don't like them.


If you want to have a corp that goes berserk when competing mining crew shows up at "your" belt(s) you should recruit people with characters able to fly mining ships AND pvp ships AND those people should know how to use both kinds of ships properly.

You cannot expect Joe The Miner undocking ganking cat when you promised him everlasting mining op. Just the same as you cannot expect Tim The Ganker to sit at belt with your hulks keeping watch.

State your expectations and goals clearly from the beginning so people who are in your corp know exactly what they can expect from you and what is expected of them.

Another thing is, if you have a corp with mining branch and "pve" branch and if "pve" scrub starts to have some opinions about mining guys you should step in and cut this sh!t ASAP. You cannot expect to have a functioning corp when some people think better of themselves just because their pixels are different.


Well, that's not really what I meant. I used to play ping pong with other mining ships that came into a belt that the corp was mining, but I finally got over it. I don't want my miners going berserk if someone else comes in, because most of them have frigate skills to Level III and that's it. So live and let live in the belts. We don't need strife. We need ISK.


Why don't you want your miners going berserk when someone starts mining out "your" belts?

- Every unit they mine is less ore you can mine.
- Every unit they mine drives the value of your ore down.
- Every belt they clear is one you cannot.

If you're rationalizing those negative outcomes with the phrase "but there's another belt over there" -- you're doing it wrong.

For example:

- If your corp mines an entire belt, makes 50 million ISK total (100% of the belt), and it takes you an hour, you (as a corp) are making 50m ISK/hr. (simples)
- If I come along, and start mining, I take 5% of the mins in that belt, and it's dead in 55 minutes. (no biggie, there's more belts in this system)
- It takes you an additional 10 minutes to locate another 50m ISK belt with no one else in it, and start mining again. (wow, it's busy in here today ... )
- Your ISK/hour is only 43 million ISK (nearly 15% loss to your ISK/hour ratio), all from me mining for 5 minutes and grabbing 5% of the value of that belt.

(Note, above example is using made up belt values and mining times, though I think I've had enough caffeine that the results are solid...)

With that said, ISK/hr (and by extension, your wallet balance) isn't the end all and be all; I mean, it's great and all to keep making ISK (and not have a negative ISK/hr) ... but if all you can field is shitfit frigs, you can burn through all the ISK in the game, and still not really do much "good" for yourselves. You've got to get your miners to at least a basic level in combat skills.

Back in 2007 (when I started), every person I ran into that knew I was looking at a mining track told me the same thing -- "Mining is a decent low-skill profession, but in EVE combat will find you whether you like it or not. Train your mining skills, but you will also need to be able to fly a cruiser for when that happens." I took their advice (well, went to a BC instead, because I liked the looks of it), though was essentially "no skills" in it for like 5 years; sure I had the necessary fitting/core skills, and a T2 tank ... but things like T2 guns, gunnery support skills, and Large drones (and sentries) weren't even on my radar until late 2011, because of how little I used "combat" ships (and I liked pursuing "non-combat" paths, like logistics).

Assuming we're talking about a brand new pilot, it only takes approximately one (1) month to get the relevant skills to L4 for a "front-line" frigate (Punisher, Incursus, etc.). Cruisers (Medium guns, and Ship skill) are only like 8-10 days more. There's no excuse not to have these skills.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
ACY GTMI
Veerhouven Group
#69 - 2014-08-06 12:48:46 UTC
Velicitia wrote:


Why don't you want your miners going berserk when someone starts mining out "your" belts?



Because I'm not a sociopath. No one in the alliance is.

That also has nothing to do with my question.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#70 - 2014-08-06 13:12:37 UTC
ACY GTMI wrote:
Velicitia wrote:


Why don't you want your miners going berserk when someone starts mining out "your" belts?



Because I'm not a sociopath. No one in the alliance is.

That also has nothing to do with my question.


Well, "go berserk" is likely the wrong phrasing, but you really shouldn't get held up on that.

However, wanting to keep things you've laid claim to (however tenuous that claim may be) doesn't make you a sociopath. Would you call kids who lay claim to a corner of a playground "sociopaths", because they want to keep the other kids away from whatever they're doing?

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
flakeys
Doomheim
#71 - 2014-08-06 13:55:45 UTC
I tried reading the first 3 posts the OP made in this thread ... but i just can't make anything out of it. Shocked

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
blahblahbanky Isu
Galleons of Seamen
#72 - 2014-08-06 14:19:18 UTC
Fairly certain this is a giant troll thread, but I'll half-bite.


I mined on a handful of accounts with a corp (it now no longer exists as my friends all quit for Wildstar) for months without CODE or any other jerks attacking us. There was only one other corp that competed with us for belts, and they were Aussie TZ (i think), so we typically got whatever we wanted out of the belts.

My advice is to just move if you don't like what's going on. There are a crap load of places you can go. Sure, moving the corp is a pain, but is that more of a pain than the jerks that are harassing you or competing for the same ore?

If you have miners that are unwilling to at least train some drone and defensive skills, then let them die. Simple as that.
Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2014-08-06 14:27:37 UTC
ACY GTMI wrote:


I don't know how many Intel channels I have been thrown out of for being arrogant. :)

In other words, questioning the status quo.


Clearly they don't appreciate your brilliance.

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#74 - 2014-08-06 14:51:02 UTC
ACY GTMI wrote:
Trisha Landers wrote:
What you need to do is tank your ships (A shield booster won't really help your tank. Just mentioning because a lot of miner killmails seem to use that and nothing else).
Please don't discount shield boosters. My personal miner has a 'lucky' Hulk. It has spent months in Null. It has MLU IIs in the lows, and one lonely Gisti-B shield booster.

ugh
Death Reign
Asset Liberators
#75 - 2014-08-06 15:16:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Death Reign
ACY GTMI wrote:
That was exactly the point that came up in the other thread. A poster suggested that there was not enough strife between mining corps. They wanted to see mining corps go to war over resources. Well, many miners are not trained for PvE. Many don't want to be. That suggests using people who do enjoy PvE. But I think a PvEr in a mining corp isn't doing any good for himself, or the corp.

Have you ever tried to move a 26 member mining corp in the 24 hours between war dec and start of hostilities? We have a way around that, but most corps don't.



I think that you are using the term PvE wrong. Pve means Player Versus Environment basically You Vs Computer. PvP means player Vs. player.

You are talking about going to war over resources in this post which suggests PvP but are suggesting the pilots you expect to go to war should be trained for PvE this makes no sense.

I know you have stood on the PvE statement at least once already when someone tried to correct you, so If you MEAN PvE you are either a moron or you are a troll.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#76 - 2014-08-06 15:37:08 UTC
blahblahbanky Isu wrote:
Fairly certain this is a giant troll thread, but I'll half-bite.


I mined on a handful of accounts with a corp (it now no longer exists as my friends all quit for Wildstar) for months without CODE or any other jerks attacking us. There was only one other corp that competed with us for belts, and they were Aussie TZ (i think), so we typically got whatever we wanted out of the belts.

My advice is to just move if you don't like what's going on. There are a crap load of places you can go. Sure, moving the corp is a pain, but is that more of a pain than the jerks that are harassing you or competing for the same ore?

If you have miners that are unwilling to at least train some drone and defensive skills, then let them die. Simple as that.


why should I move, when I can just kill my competition?

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
blahblahbanky Isu
Galleons of Seamen
#77 - 2014-08-06 16:17:08 UTC
Velicitia wrote:


why should I move, when I can just kill my competition?


Because you are lazy miners, risk adverse, and completely unwilling to train any combat skills. Well...the OP is anyway.
Iain Cariaba
#78 - 2014-08-06 16:19:00 UTC
I've been i this game for 7 years. Been miner, missioner, wormholer, ratter, hauler... pretty much just about everything. I've been in corps with good leaders and corps with bad leaders. OP is a prime example of a bad leader.

10 days to put a newbie miner into a procurer, which is way more than enough to tank highsec rats and mines a butt ton more than a venture. This includes strip miner 1 and the tank mods. This took me about 5 seconds to find out, which OP apparently can't affort to waste while using those orca and freighter isk sinks to make himself look good to noobs, while probably scamming them out of their ore. A freighter to haul ore in highsec? Seriously?

Anyone who's been in this game as long as OP has knows the difference between PvEers and PvPers. The fact that OP didn't seem do know this basic fact makes me suspect that this is really a troll post. The multitude of posts with veiled personal insults combined with his blatant disregard of anyone not supportive of his entitlement mentality simply confirms this.
Death Reign
Asset Liberators
#79 - 2014-08-06 21:20:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Death Reign
You know what my solution to the competition issue is? Warp in an orca and 8 hulks. Vacuum up EVERYTHING with Strip Miner 1's indiscriminately. Next Belt, Repeat. Yes I know you Newb Miners hate me. And no I don't care that you were mining that rock.

Kill Me? You are welcome to try.
ACY GTMI
Veerhouven Group
#80 - 2014-08-07 00:59:22 UTC  |  Edited by: ACY GTMI
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Well, intel channels are for intel. For general stuff you have other chats/comms. All is good with small talk until it prevents you from noticing warning that's why intel channels usually are very quiet and if you see those tabs blinking you know you really should take a look.


It wasn't ever over small talk. Things like someone reporting a lot of red ships moving. The moderator says the message has to be in the proper format or it will be ignored.

Consider the possible situations the reporter could be in.

"Large fleet of reds in xx-xxxx." Is unacceptable? What would you say to the moderator? Especially when he says, "You need to get closer and get ship types and numbers"?

Sure, ship types and numbers are valuable information, but the ship the reporter is flying may be valuable, too.


Now I am being forced off topic.