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(to?) strong Orca mechanic in high sec

Author
Malwadas Kadmos
Anti-Social Behaviour Order
#1 - 2014-08-05 12:52:23 UTC
hey,
i was just playing around with those flashy guys in jita a little, as i agressed one of them he could instandly reship with his orca alt (which was not flashy ofc) to a stronger ship without delay at all!
Dont get me wrong iam not mad because i lost a thrasher or something but it seems pretty strong since this mechanic could be abused to avoid getting targeted/killed.
Since there is no(or at least almost no cooldown) on this mechanic you could keep breaking your enemies lock on you until your agression timer runs out or to safe shiny ships without risk.
Even the fact that you are able to reship to a hard counter without leaving your oponent the chance to react seems a bit broken.

thoughts ?
Moglarr
Operation Meatshield
#2 - 2014-08-05 14:04:22 UTC
Don't waste time trying to fight people on the Jita undock in a Thrasher.
Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#3 - 2014-08-05 14:38:11 UTC
same problem as with neutral boosters, orca should get an aggression timer as it was partecipating in the fight
Malwadas Kadmos
Anti-Social Behaviour Order
#4 - 2014-08-05 14:46:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Malwadas Kadmos
well boosters alts and drugs are something you have to expect, usually its fun since u agress them, they undock logi, you jamm their logi and they die.
but beeing able to reship like that...
Akashi Suenobu
Raven's Flight
#5 - 2014-08-05 17:11:50 UTC
I am always surprised by how many people want to change game mechanics just because they lost some fights. If you are so concerned about how broken this is, then stop aggressing the flashy guys. Obviously they want you to aggress them that's the whole point. They want an easy kill, and so they use game mechanics. You also want an easy kill, but the game mechanics don't help you, so you want to change them until they do. It's all nonsense.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#6 - 2014-08-05 18:29:19 UTC
A suspect flag is based on performing an aggressive action on another player. Either you shoot at them (assuming you're in losec), or you take goods out of a container that does not belong to you. Orcas allowing suspect flagged pilots to use their bays to refit/reship are not performing any kind of action (setting permissions is independent of a pilot using the services), let alone an aggressive one, so they should not get suspect flagged for it.

Think about this in a different context. Assume for a moment that I want to gank an Orca, and that game mechanics had been changed as you suggest to suspect flag any Orca that allows a flagged pilot to use their services. All I'd have to do is get into a mining fleet with said Orca, request to use their services, flag my mining ship, and then bam, the Orca is fair game for the combat alt I have waiting in a nearby safespot.

No Orca pilot in their right mind would ever allow access out of corp, and even allowing access to those in your corp would pose a risk to would-be AWOXers.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

Malwadas Kadmos
Anti-Social Behaviour Order
#7 - 2014-08-05 18:40:27 UTC
i never suggested that the orca should become suspect.
would make more sense that u cant reship after entering pvp combat in high sec.
JAF Anders
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2014-08-05 18:48:25 UTC
Maybe for the sake of an 'honorable duel', but beyond that, I don't see a good reason to.

Eve is a rare game in which you can fight dirty. You're supposed to reship out of an Orca. You're supposed to have buddies ready to help you out. You're supposed to turn the tables on the unsuspecting mark.

Eve lets human beings be human -- Eve is real.

The pursuit of excellence and stabbed plexing alts.

Paranoid Loyd
#9 - 2014-08-05 18:54:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Malwadas Kadmos wrote:
i never suggested that the orca should become suspect.
would make more sense that u cant reship after entering pvp combat in high sec.


Its the same as it is with docking at the station, if he had agressed you then he would not be able to reship. As he did not, he was able to reship.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Liam Inkuras
Furnace
Thermodynamics
#10 - 2014-08-05 19:22:27 UTC
Get out of f*cking hisec

I wear my goggles at night.

Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone

Maeltstome
Academy of the Unseen Arts
The Potato Alliance
#11 - 2014-08-06 10:49:50 UTC
Malwadas Kadmos wrote:
i never suggested that the orca should become suspect.
would make more sense that u cant reship after entering pvp combat in high sec.


No, but it should.

People using these mechanics are just as risk averse as the people who don't undock. 0 risk factor fighting is pathetic, defending it means you're either aware of this and want to keep exploiting it, or you aren't aware of it and you entirely miss the point of Eve.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2014-08-06 11:48:35 UTC
Akashi Suenobu wrote:
I am always surprised by how many people want to change game mechanics just because they lost some fights. If you are so concerned about how broken this is, then stop aggressing the flashy guys. Obviously they want you to aggress them that's the whole point. They want an easy kill, and so they use game mechanics. You also want an easy kill, but the game mechanics don't help you, so you want to change them until they do. It's all nonsense.



its not a matter of losign a fight. Its a matter that the mechanic is at odds with all othe rmechanics in eve. There is no 60 second timer,t here is no flag on the orca, nothing.

A simple timer would be enough to make the mechanic work. People just use this as a get out of jaiul card. Swap their expensive ship for a shuttle and get awya with zero chances of losing anything.

Anything that can as easily be used to get risk near zero should b changed.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2014-08-06 11:50:04 UTC
Liam Inkuras wrote:
Get out of f*cking hisec



you mean get out of the only place where you can still get fights on very small scale (2-3 people) a few times per hour?

No thanks.. we prefer to have good pvp instead of 0.0 Follow the master and click F1.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#14 - 2014-08-06 14:22:44 UTC
Malwadas Kadmos wrote:
i never suggested that the orca should become suspect.
would make more sense that u cant reship after entering pvp combat in high sec.

I know, I was just making a statement for the benefit of the discussion. In general, pilots should not get flagged because of what other pilots do to them, or their ships.

In spite of what I said earlier about suspect timers, I would consider not letting a player with an active weapons timer reship at an Orca, Mobile Depot, Capital ship, etc. a feasible change to game mechanics. It makes sense that if you can't dock or use a stargate, you shouldn't be allowed to reship. This also does nothing to directly risk the Orca pilot in question.

Maeltstome wrote:
Malwadas Kadmos wrote:
i never suggested that the orca should become suspect.
would make more sense that u cant reship after entering pvp combat in high sec.


No, but it should.

People using these mechanics are just as risk averse as the people who don't undock. 0 risk factor fighting is pathetic, defending it means you're either aware of this and want to keep exploiting it, or you aren't aware of it and you entirely miss the point of Eve.

The Orca in this situation should absolutely not get a suspect flag. Not because I support such risk-averse tactics, but because it would be far to easy to abuse in order to gank unsuspecting Orca pilots as I described in my earlier post. There are other changes that could be made (see mine above) that would force pilots to commit without risking Orcas who's only crime was to allow access to their ship Maintenance Bay.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#15 - 2014-08-06 14:33:37 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:

Think about this in a different context. Assume for a moment that I want to gank an Orca, and that game mechanics had been changed as you suggest to suspect flag any Orca that allows a flagged pilot to use their services. All I'd have to do is get into a mining fleet with said Orca, request to use their services, flag my mining ship, and then bam, the Orca is fair game for the combat alt I have waiting in a nearby safespot.

No Orca pilot in their right mind would ever allow access out of corp, and even allowing access to those in your corp would pose a risk to would-be AWOXers.



JAF Anders wrote:
Maybe for the sake of an 'honorable duel', but beyond that, I don't see a good reason to.

Eve is a rare game in which you can fight dirty. You're supposed to reship out of an Orca. You're supposed to have buddies ready to help you out. You're supposed to turn the tables on the unsuspecting mark.

Eve lets human beings be human -- Eve is real.


It seems ccp wants certain types of dirty fighting but perhaps not others.

It seems to me that the orca pilot should be able to set whether he wants suspects to be able to dock or not. If he allows it, the orca becomes suspect.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

MonkeyBusiness Thiesant
Pandemic Unicorns
#16 - 2014-08-06 15:03:26 UTC
The orca pilot should prolly become suspect too, just as anybody helping with reps or remote sebo/tracking does.

Of course, the orca would then just insta dock.......
Malwadas Kadmos
Anti-Social Behaviour Order
#17 - 2014-08-06 20:28:34 UTC
not beeing able to use this orca service while having flags like criminal/suspect/limited engagement with another player (in high sec) would already fix the problem.

well but bumping his orca away with a 100mn mwd cruiser and killing him afterwards works well :)
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#18 - 2014-08-06 22:06:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Malwadas Kadmos wrote:
not beeing able to use this orca service while having flags like criminal/suspect/limited engagement with another player (in high sec) would already fix the problem.

You are not flagged with another player. You are just flagged by crimewatch, for any of a number of reasons.

If you chose to engage him, but he doesn't engage back, why should he be penalised as though he were in a fight? As far as the game can know, he could genuinely want to escape from your aggression.

If he had engaged you, he wouldn't have been able to swap ships so quickly. So the mechanics are already there, the only difference in this situation is that he had a better knowledge of them than you.

Clearly, you figured out how to use those mechanics to your advantage later. That's what's great about this game - not being spoon fed so you don't make poor decisions, but analysing what happened and working out what to do different next time.

The current mechanics with the Orca are fine IMO.
Akashi Suenobu
Raven's Flight
#19 - 2014-08-07 13:27:47 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Akashi Suenobu wrote:
I am always surprised by how many people want to change game mechanics just because they lost some fights. If you are so concerned about how broken this is, then stop aggressing the flashy guys. Obviously they want you to aggress them that's the whole point. They want an easy kill, and so they use game mechanics. You also want an easy kill, but the game mechanics don't help you, so you want to change them until they do. It's all nonsense.



its not a matter of losign a fight. Its a matter that the mechanic is at odds with all othe rmechanics in eve. There is no 60 second timer,t here is no flag on the orca, nothing.

A simple timer would be enough to make the mechanic work. People just use this as a get out of jaiul card. Swap their expensive ship for a shuttle and get awya with zero chances of losing anything.

Anything that can as easily be used to get risk near zero should b changed.


It isn't at odds with the ability to dock and reship that way. Or warp to a safe, eject, and board a ship you abandoned in space (although this method has its own risks). It's just at odds with wanting to "jam his logi and kill him for the lulz"
Xuixien
Black Echelon
#20 - 2014-08-07 17:28:41 UTC
An interesting mechanic is how fleet members can drop stuff into the Orca's fleet hangar directly from someone else's jetcan and while the thief will flag as suspect, the Orca will not. It was inordinately satisfying to find those "Can't gank us! XP" Procurer fleets and just drag all their ore into my Orca, stealing their productivity. Pirate

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist

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