These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev blog: Into the Known Unknowns: Wormhole Updates with Hyperion

First post First post
Author
Ivana Twinkle
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2014-08-06 15:39:38 UTC
ChromeStriker wrote:
So.... you added more connections, made it harder to roll them AND added little frigate back doors to anywhere in Wh space...



Because your wormhole should really be as safe as highsec, whilst you shovel isk.
Airi Cho
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#22 - 2014-08-06 15:50:19 UTC
Ivana Twinkle wrote:
ChromeStriker wrote:
So.... you added more connections, made it harder to roll them AND added little frigate back doors to anywhere in Wh space...



Because your wormhole should really be as safe as highsec, whilst you shovel isk.


and living in k-space sov nullsec is dangerous....Roll
Luscius Uta
#23 - 2014-08-06 15:51:01 UTC
Onw thing that remains total mystery to me is the removal of API pull for player kills in wormholes, considering they are still pulled by killboards.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.

Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#24 - 2014-08-06 16:03:31 UTC
Airi Cho wrote:
Ivana Twinkle wrote:
ChromeStriker wrote:
So.... you added more connections, made it harder to roll them AND added little frigate back doors to anywhere in Wh space...



Because your wormhole should really be as safe as highsec, whilst you shovel isk.


and living in k-space sov nullsec is dangerous....Roll

it is, just ask your former neighbors test how safe sov nullsec is
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#25 - 2014-08-06 16:32:12 UTC
Luscius Uta wrote:
Onw thing that remains total mystery to me is the removal of API pull for player kills in wormholes, considering they are still pulled by killboards.



Not all are.

There's around 5% of player kills which never hit a killboard.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
#26 - 2014-08-06 16:34:59 UTC
I started playing EVE during the Apocrypha expansion. My first player corp was a wormhole corp and to this day, my fondest memories of EVE happened in w-space. Sadly it's been years since I have lived in w-space, but these changes are very exciting and I may even look into going back there Big smile

Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.

Enthropic
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#27 - 2014-08-06 16:43:12 UTC
ChromeStriker wrote:
So.... you added more connections, made it harder to roll them AND added little frigate back doors to anywhere in Wh space...



yup, thats what they did.
The consequence will be significantly less PVE fleets in W-space, as it gets more dangerous to run sleeper sites with those changes, and at the same time takes a hell of a lot more time to set up a PVE op (as well as roll your static to find PVP targets).

This will result in less PvP and less activity in WHs, well done CCP
Altirius Saldiaro
Doomheim
#28 - 2014-08-06 16:47:58 UTC
Enthropic wrote:
ChromeStriker wrote:
So.... you added more connections, made it harder to roll them AND added little frigate back doors to anywhere in Wh space...



yup, thats what they did.
The consequence will be significantly less PVE fleets in W-space, as it gets more dangerous to run sleeper sites with those changes, and at the same time takes a hell of a lot more time to set up a PVE op (as well as roll your static to find PVP targets).

This will result in less PvP and less activity in WHs, well done CCP


There will be more pvp and less pve. They need to revert the ore sites back to being probed to find them. These new wh's are going to get a lot of miners killed, plus the changes to k162 detection. Interceptors and Interdictors are going to be much more common.
Angelica Scatterbrain
WH United
#29 - 2014-08-06 16:50:28 UTC
The entire blog could have been summed up with: we have decided on changes that don't really serve any purpose other than getting people to hand us real money for isk.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#30 - 2014-08-06 17:15:08 UTC
Angelica Scatterbrain wrote:
The entire blog could have been summed up with: we have decided on changes that don't really serve any purpose other than getting people to hand us real money for isk.

Truly, the slight increase in the difficulty of exhausting the mass of a wormhole spells the death knell for making money in Eve. Stop being melodramatic.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

John Starski
Anarchist Dawn
U N K N O W N
#31 - 2014-08-06 17:16:19 UTC
First impressions...

Well... Remove "Mass-based spawn distance after wormhole jumps" from this list and kick out genius who got this idea. In my opinion It'll turn wormholes in carebear heaven and destroy small scale pvp with capitals. As i see it this change will only add more time that players will have to spend dealing with routine activities.

As far as it goes i'll drop EvE when this addon comes out due to loss of interest... And i bet i'm not alone.

We discussed this changes in alliance and haven't found any good ideas how to stay in wormholes with any good Capital pvp FUN...

And yeap... You call it improvements (!!!)... Сynics.
Quote:
we are proposing the most significant package of improvements to wormhole space since the release of the Apocrypha expansion in 2009.

ChaseTheLasers
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
#32 - 2014-08-06 18:15:55 UTC
I'd like to know the average number of pilots in an active WH system. I know a lot of corps are the 'smaller' guys who got sick of nullsec. I'd bet the number of average pilots is quite small in a system.

The throwing distance is going to hit some of these I think then it comes to using caps. I'm interested to see how the change pans out, but it's quite a few of them together. You need to keep in mind that rolling is done because people *want* PvP most of the time.

I'd much rather see a cap jump through, be like it is now, but have a 'destabilising' factor which means it can't jump for another minute or so if anything. Smaller ships, like frigs, should be able to jump back right away like the mechanics allow now.
This encourages the 'send a scout' mentality before committing larger ships. Scale it with ship size, if needed.

Heck, there are entirely different methods you could use. What about WH jumping eating into cap? Again, scale it with ship size. A frig only gets hit for 10% cap use. A capital uses 80% (or whatever) of its cap jumping. All of a sudden the capital has to replenish cap before jumping back again. If it gets attacked it's not in a great situation and could quickly give the rollers a serious issue, even with a limited number of people attacking it. A Bhaalgorn is really going to ruin a rollers day if it landed on grid while it's charging its cap.
Now the rollers need to commit a fleet to save it or it dies = PvP

Not that I'm a fan of the idea overall currently. I'll see how it plays out.
Air Cloud
The Amazing Squirrels
#33 - 2014-08-06 18:19:17 UTC
So it seems to me that You think You fixed problem?

WRONG!!!

WH space as it is now is space where small coeps can live, do somewhat PvP and do PvE in their own pace, a space where large corps wander killing everything in their path, and everything works, surely not the perfect way, but what does?
As I see CCP favours Big entities (yes You goons-and-other-nul- entities, and don't You dare to say otherwise, cause You all know im right on the point here) and they do so in WH as well it seems. Give delay to k-Space local chat for arriving from WH, im asking for 15 seconds and well see how your null space is fine (i lived in null for some time and i can say ratting in 0.0 is printing ISK much more than WHs nowadays, you have local chat, you can easilly farm 200m a day while after work, and still having time to go to bar with friends, and if someone intrudes you DOCK omg so harg and insecure).

Lets go point by point (i will also add here it applies to c5 and c6 class WH where lots people live):

1. No Plan Survives Contact with the Players: Let’s Talk About Emergence
Right, you favour big players anyway as I mentioned earlier, as to why i will explain later, You want us to mingle in big groups i can get it, but we just DON'T WANT TO!
I don't think You hate WH, You hate small groups of people mingling by their own it seems.

2. Wormhole Effect Rebalance
Here i can say Well done CCP and really well done tinkering there, also 1 but: Wolf-Rayers is totally now armour version of Pulsar, but i can live with that. Black holes inhabitable - sweet finally. That is all I can say on this part. So some NEW CONTENT HERE - GOOD STEP

3. Second Static for Class 4 Wormholes
More lively non-capital connections through W-Space, and perfect occasion for extra mid scale Pew Pew - sure why not I say, so another nice change. ALSO NEW CONTENT - ANOTHER GOOD STEP

4. More and New Randomly Spawning Wormholes
Ok so here we get to the point with problems. Lets say i have 20-30 ppl corpo in c5 and this pops up form big WH corps (I will not use names here) or since its null-connected then null ones, im screwed, lets add i live in Wolf-Rayert - they jump 50 Assault Frigs and **** capital fleet with them (AF will get to 1,4-1,8k DPS with extremly small sig radius and bonus armor hp), still numbers count and i cannot kill this connection. so 16h AFK for me. Oh or i move to some ****** K-Space right?
I don't think i need to add anything it's killing small and mid populeted holes. great job CCP.
For me here its personally 50/50 not bad idea not a great one , lets say well see how it works.

5. Mass-Based Spawn Distance after Wormhole Jumps
The best of them all.
For big WH corps bad idea - they will not have a chance to fight smaller people cause smaller corps will be too afraid to throw that capital there in small risky chance of closing the WH. So it is eleiminating any fight for them with smaller entities.
For med sized WH corps - rolling with BS class takes too long to rageroll sso we will just wait for static to disappear in 24h and if we are connected to ****** chain with nothing there we will go play ANOTHER GAME in the mean time - guess CCP just wants us to stop playing EVE no matter what.
Small WH corporations - look above... if a mid sized one is at bad spot small will just move out of WH and probably leave EVE or as i think is intended by CCP (all my friends think simillar now) move to K-Space to join bigger groups.

6. Changes to K162 Signature Appearance
Big corporations - will rage roll, scan new WH move fleet there, and finally scout enters, sfter whole 50 ppl fleet is ready to **** those 10 people ratting. Another great idea CCP. there is almost no problem with spawning as is now, cause capitals have 5 min Triage and Siege anyway...
Mid sized corporations - ok so our static finally closed after 24h waiting so until we jump through new one we are pretty much saver than before so we can finally farm... (to be ganged)
small corps - self explanatory
Similar situation as before with corp sizes. change local apperance in null while at it! No You cannot? Too much whiny null-bears compared to WH people? Oh I'm sorry I will just get in corner and die cause there is only so much people in WH and we will not be listened enough by CCP as well as those big null-coalitions (cause alliance is not enough).



So I belive i've proven my point, anyway Most of WH people are oopsed to this and only people commenting it is positive is goonswarm o0 when did You guys move back to WH? Cause from what i know last time issue were numbers You did not move high enough numbers in...

So in conclusion CCP:
ADD NEW CONTENT, DON'T JUST BREAK WORKING THINGS CAUSE YOU DIDN'T INTEND FOR THEM TO WORK AS WE MADE THEM TO. (as you said in point 1. You guys just contradict Yourselves)
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#34 - 2014-08-06 18:38:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Mike Azariah, you got ninja'd by Lebowski. Big smile

CCP Lebowski wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:
MWDs also increase mass considerably, which is something that wormhole closing fleets take advantage of all the time. I assume that the mass-weighting algorithm will throw a "hot" (MWD active) ship farther away on average than a "cold" ship?
In this changes current form active modules do not affect the distance that you will land from the wormhole. This is due to technical issues surrounding the mass calculations for your ship, which we are planning to fix, but may not make it into the Hyperion release.

Just wanted to make this known for the sake of full disclosure.


I appreciate that.

Otherwise, +1 to the changes, generally. The K162 solution is the best one I've seen, and I like the attempt to make frigates more of a thing, beyond the ever-present covert ops ships.

The mass-based ejection radius is discomforting, but that doesn't mean it's a bad change. The worst outcome I can think of is that gives an advantage to corps that are large enough to blob and flash-crash a hole with subcaps, while smaller corps are going to be putting themselves on the line.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Knug LiDi
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#35 - 2014-08-06 18:47:33 UTC
1) was hoping for new deployables

2) was glad to see idiocy regarding moludes/ships for screwing with wh opening/closing were not added

3) was hoping to see new/different/changes to sleepers

4) was hoping to see comet mining (object in space moving, so grid constantly updatings, hard for slower ships to stay with comet while mining - bookmarks not quite so useful as comet constantly in motion)

5) Is it just me, does everyone hear Fozzie's voice in their heads when reading his dev blogs ?

If only we could fall into a woman's arms

without falling into her hands

Teoshen
Transcendent Innovations Incorporated
#36 - 2014-08-06 19:10:05 UTC
As the CEO of a small corp, I have very mixed feelings about these changes.

Some of the changes I see don't look to me to be content friendly. Rolling WHs will be more risky, require more people, and take more time than it currently does, and none of that is good in my opinion.

Sadly, eve is largely a numbers game. Most fleets of 5 are met with at least double that when a fight is actually found. I like WHs because they are an environment where a small corp like mine can be somewhat relevant and effective with the right choices and tactics. Numbers still win, but we at least we don't have to worry about the kind of fleet escalations that are often found in low/null.

Taking away our ability to be effective content creators for our members (and those we engage, btw) is a death sentence for both sides. Not every corp wants to be hundreds or thousands of people. I accept this limits our options as size is the main barrier to entry in Null sec. Please don't make that barrier also apply to WH space.
ArmEagle Kusoni
Knights of Nii
The 20 Minuters
#37 - 2014-08-06 19:33:35 UTC
At least make 'D' a hotkey for jumping wormholes just like jumping a stargate.

(For some reason many a month ago, after a patch, I had muscle memory that made me want to use the D key for that. But it might never have been a thing and has to be sought in brain damage.)
Bonny Crapshooter
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2014-08-06 19:38:33 UTC
Teoshen wrote:
As the CEO of a small corp, I have very mixed feelings about these changes.

Some of the changes I see don't look to me to be content friendly. Rolling WHs will be more risky, require more people, and take more time than it currently does, and none of that is good in my opinion.

Sadly, eve is largely a numbers game. Most fleets of 5 are met with at least double that when a fight is actually found. I like WHs because they are an environment where a small corp like mine can be somewhat relevant and effective with the right choices and tactics. Numbers still win, but we at least we don't have to worry about the kind of fleet escalations that are often found in low/null.

Taking away our ability to be effective content creators for our members (and those we engage, btw) is a death sentence for both sides. Not every corp wants to be hundreds or thousands of people. I accept this limits our options as size is the main barrier to entry in Null sec. Please don't make that barrier also apply to WH space.


This seems to reflect our situation exactly.
We make some money from small-fleet PvE content, found in neighboring wormholes. Regularly there's no/hardly any content in the statics. Only solution is to roll, which is already potentially risky enough. And now that will take more time and much more risk.

Something has to come back for that in fun or isk rewards, or we're better off running level 4 missions.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#39 - 2014-08-06 20:23:55 UTC
Enthropic wrote:
ChromeStriker wrote:
So.... you added more connections, made it harder to roll them AND added little frigate back doors to anywhere in Wh space...



yup, thats what they did.
The consequence will be significantly less PVE fleets in W-space, as it gets more dangerous to run sleeper sites with those changes, and at the same time takes a hell of a lot more time to set up a PVE op (as well as roll your static to find PVP targets).

This will result in less PvP and less activity in WHs, well done CCP


It is pretty simple.

The null sec cartels have very little control over ISK generation in wormholes, so got CCP to nerf PvE in them.
Once CCP makes further changes so the cartels can control and rent out wormhole systems, then potential ISK generation in wormhole systems will suddenly be improved.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#40 - 2014-08-06 21:17:30 UTC
sweikewa wrote:
0% new content.


Make your own content.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff