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Anti-Cap Missiles? (No, Not Anti-Capital Missiles)

Author
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#1 - 2014-08-05 20:29:30 UTC
This is less of a real gameplay need and more of a random idea, but one that I think could prove interesting.

I would like to propose adding miissiles that, instead of doing damage, drain a certain amount of power from the target's capacitor. They would retain the same basic missile damage mechanics (explosion radius, explosion velocity, etc.) so that range and application bonuses would still apply, but type-specific damage bonuses would not. This would, for example, make them useless for a torp Raven to use against a fast frigate, etc.

There is a certain amount of precedent here with the Void bomb, which is just an AoE cap missile.

The important piece would be the amount of cap drained. The average amount drained per launcher would have to be considerably less than a class-similar energy neutralizer, with long-range missiles (Lights, Heavies, Cruises) draining less than short-range missiles (Rockets, HAMs, Torps). Otherwise, NOS/neuts, and ships with bonuses to them, would be rendered obsolete. As a ballpark figure (totally open to critique/input), a Cruise Raven firing nothing but anti-cap cruise missiles would drain as much cap over time as a single heavy neut, while a Torp Raven firing nothing but anti-cap torpedoes would drain as much cap over time as two heavy neuts.

Finally, taking this idea to it's logical conclusion, I would propose that we extend this change to capital missiles. The Phoenix has long been undervalued due to the state of capital missiles, and remains so even after the recent changes to the hull and capital missiles. Having capital-class anti-cap missiles would give it a unique, if nontraditional, role amongst the dreadnaughts.



I'm sure this idea is full of holes. Feel free to tear it apart and point them out to me. I'm just curious to hear what you folks think about it.



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Sisohiv
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2014-08-05 21:17:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Sisohiv
Neut Torps and Missiles doesn't even break lore if they originate from Khanid Navies but Geddons are under used now. I don't know if there is really a need for the weapons you are describing.

As for the Phoenix, it's a 4 billion ISK (with fit) janitor, like all the Dreads. They don't fight the ship to ship wars of EVE. They go in afterwards and chew through the structure walls. In that respect the Phoenix in fact holds its own. Torp Phoenix is as good as the rest in the dps delivery, applied to fixed structures that have been lost and are now just in the way.

Giving it a battlefield role that didn't require nailing it to the floor would be fine if we can come up with one for the other Dreads too. Have a round fired from the Naglfar that creates a sphere around a ship, reducing shield resists for a determined cycle. Armor for Moros. These are just examples.

Point being, rather than sit here and shoot holes in your idea, it can be worked with. I'd still say that the problems with these roles is less to do with need for more roles and more to do with lack of need for the current roles for the ships you mention. Mostly due to half planned nerfing.
Mai 'Talon' Motsu
Doomheim
#3 - 2014-08-05 22:49:54 UTC
I am all for adding more variety to existing systems. Would these missiles do the same a damage as there counter parts or would they do less to balance the cap destabilization.
Jessica Danikov
Network Danikov
#4 - 2014-08-06 00:04:33 UTC
Or, you know, use an energy neutraliser or vampire. Because they don't take turrets/launcher slots.

Really, all you're proposing is a long-range low-cap neut which overlaps a bit with ships that have bonuses to neut range. If you're not rendering the ships made for neuting useless, you're probably not neuting enough for it to ever be worthwhile and you've made your weapon pointless... which is why it's a bad idea. There's just no niche for it.

Now, if you were proposing new T2 ammo variants which traded off chunks of damage for smalls amounts of neuting, that might be interesting, but potentially dangerous when scaled up to 250 man Drake blobs or utterly useless if the ratio of neuting to damage means that you kill things before you ever harm their cap significantly.

Truth is, adding new weapons, new damage profiles, anything like that is an incredibly difficult thing to do without treading on the toes of what already exists and making something totally useless (Defender Missiles!) or totally overpowered (Sentry Drones).
Andrew Indy
Cleaning Crew
#5 - 2014-08-06 07:24:00 UTC
Mai 'Talon' Motsu wrote:
I am all for adding more variety to existing systems. Would these missiles do the same a damage as there counter parts or would they do less to balance the cap destabilization.


I assumed they did no Damage, just nuet.

Quote:

Now, if you were proposing new T2 ammo variants which traded off chunks of damage for smalls amounts of neuting, that might be interesting, but potentially dangerous when scaled up to 250 man Drake blobs or utterly useless if the ratio of neuting to damage means that you kill things before you ever harm their cap significantly.


Also pretty sure thats what the PO wants but less the damage part. That would allow a Ship with standard misses to say fit Nuet Missiles at he start od a fight , drain enemy cap and then switch to Damage missiles or something like that.

Maybe nuet missiles to escape point ect.



Vesan Terakol
Trollgrin Sadface
Dark Taboo
#6 - 2014-08-06 09:06:47 UTC
There are already neuting drones - pretty powerful in certain circumstances - so why not ha missiles too? they will need something unique of their own to make them a viable choice.

they might be an equivalent of the void bomb - realy high alpha but somehow forced to a low rate of fire? I see them tied in the rapid launchers - One of them takes the entire launcher magazine and when launched, the animation is a cluster, like the rockets. And then 35s reload, but your target is dry.

Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#7 - 2014-08-06 14:12:30 UTC
Sisohiv wrote:
Neut Torps and Missiles doesn't even break lore if they originate from Khanid Navies but Geddons are under used now. I don't know if there is really a need for the weapons you are describing.

I hadn't even thought of that. Khanid boats would be perfect for these, both from a lore standpoint and from a functionality standpoint.

Vesan Terakol wrote:
There are already neuting drones - pretty powerful in certain circumstances - so why not ha missiles too? they will need something unique of their own to make them a viable choice.

they might be an equivalent of the void bomb - realy high alpha but somehow forced to a low rate of fire? I see them tied in the rapid launchers - One of them takes the entire launcher magazine and when launched, the animation is a cluster, like the rockets. And then 35s reload, but your target is dry.

That's another interesting idea. I wouldn't muck around with launcher mechanics, but if you make each cap drain missile large enough in volume that you can only load one at a time in a "regular" launcher, that would be interesting. (Rapid launchers are another issue completely.) Not sure if I'd do this or not, but it's definitely worth looking into.

My idea was to have these missiles do zero damage and only drain cap. I think mixing damage and cap drain in the same system is okay, so long as you have to swap ammo, but not the same missile. This would be consistent with neutralizing drones and Void bombs; you can do one or the other, but not both at the same time.

Making them T2 missiles was an interesting idea mentioned above and I'd totally support that; they are, after all, somewhat specialized, and this would limit their use to only dedicated missile pilots.

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Moraguth
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#8 - 2014-08-06 14:20:22 UTC
This idea might actually make void bombs semi-useful! Torpedoes and Void Bombs in a Stealth Bomber would be pretty interesting.
In general, neuting missiles would be a pretty interesting counter to speed tanks (which I hatehatehatehatehate) too, so I'm all for that.

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Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#9 - 2014-08-06 18:04:24 UTC
Moraguth wrote:
This idea might actually make void bombs semi-useful! Torpedoes and Void Bombs in a Stealth Bomber would be pretty interesting.
In general, neuting missiles would be a pretty interesting counter to speed tanks (which I hatehatehatehatehate) too, so I'm all for that.

A bomber wing with Void bombs should be able to relatively effectively cap out a compact BS fleet. They could use anti-cap torps to cap out stragglers, or keep their regular torps to, you know, just blow them up.

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I predicted FAUXs