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Sov and Capital changes - Time line & commitment from CCP side

Author
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#41 - 2014-08-04 01:03:54 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
Isn't stuff like this what the CSM is for? If anything.


If only they were relevant to the customers or actually paid heed by CCP.
Grog Aftermath
Doomheim
#42 - 2014-08-04 01:07:27 UTC
KIller Wabbit wrote:
Abrazzar wrote:
Isn't stuff like this what the CSM is for? If anything.


If only they were relevant to the customers or actually paid heed by CCP.



If they're not relevant to the customers (which, I partially agree with as they don't represent the majority) then you should be thankful if CCP doesn't take much notice of them (not so sure that is the case though).
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#43 - 2014-08-04 04:49:11 UTC
Here is why this is a stupid command, time for a small history lesson:

And then behold, in 2004 CCP launched an expansion called Exodus, this was the start of null sec sov and alliances. Befor this groups had a non offical way of making alliances and claiming sov.

The system worked like this, you deploy a pos, and after DT you get sov. null eventually became a game of who can spam the most pos'. So for exsample. if alliance a owned system xx-xxx and it had 5 moons, if they deployed 1 large, and alliance z deployed 4 small just before DT, allaince z would gain sov.

CCP then made a change, you now had to wait 7 days to get sov...

Then CCP made the pos' have weight. 1 small = 1 point, 1 medium = 5 points 1 large = 7 points. Most points wins sov.

Then CCP had this /sarcasism BRILLANT IDEA /Sarcasim of constalation sov. If you owned 51% of the systems in a constalation, had 3 out post, you could claim a capital and that system was invulernable to any form of attack, even the pos'. So we had a HUGE influx of supers and titans. But we were suppsoe to get more tools!

Then came dominion, and the system we have now... but we are suppose to get mroe tools.

Honestly, i want CCP to take there time, give us no actual time lines untill they are ready and know WTF they are going to do. I want this done right, not a half assed attempt that will be borken a week after release.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.

Anthar Thebess
#44 - 2014-08-04 06:27:37 UTC
DaReaper wrote:
Here is why this is a stupid command, time for a small history lesson:

And then behold, in 2004 CCP launched an expansion called Exodus, this was the start of null sec sov and alliances. Befor this groups had a non offical way of making alliances and claiming sov.

The system worked like this, you deploy a pos, and after DT you get sov. null eventually became a game of who can spam the most pos'. So for exsample. if alliance a owned system xx-xxx and it had 5 moons, if they deployed 1 large, and alliance z deployed 4 small just before DT, allaince z would gain sov.

CCP then made a change, you now had to wait 7 days to get sov...

Then CCP made the pos' have weight. 1 small = 1 point, 1 medium = 5 points 1 large = 7 points. Most points wins sov.

Then CCP had this /sarcasism BRILLANT IDEA /Sarcasim of constalation sov. If you owned 51% of the systems in a constalation, had 3 out post, you could claim a capital and that system was invulernable to any form of attack, even the pos'. So we had a HUGE influx of supers and titans. But we were suppsoe to get more tools!

Then came dominion, and the system we have now... but we are suppose to get mroe tools.

Honestly, i want CCP to take there time, give us no actual time lines untill they are ready and know WTF they are going to do. I want this done right, not a half assed attempt that will be borken a week after release.



I understand what you are saying , but i'm hoping that those 10 years ( 2004 <->2014) was enough for CCP to know what is wrong and what needs to be changed.
If CCP is still unaware where are the issues we have also many, again many topics where people are suggesting solutions.

For most of involved players waiting next 10 years for a fix (2014-2024) is not an option.

Sorry.
This is game, not a mortgage on your home.
If something is wrong, it is not giving you fun ... you can simply "forget" about it.


Prince Kobol
#45 - 2014-08-04 06:56:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:


What is with all of the toddler tantrum "I want my toy now!" threads of late? James had one a week or two ago, demanding a comprehensive capital, supercapital, and sov update in 6-8 weeks (when hyperion releases) lol. Most of you are adults, with something that passes for a brain sitting inside your skull. Rub your two neurons together and think before you post.



Dude, people have been asking for changes to Sov Mechanics and Capitals for years now, this is nothing new.



Yeah but demanding them to start now (as their summer holiday is winding down) and push a finished product (comprehensive cap, super, and sov overhaul) in 3 months is sub moronic. You're either gonna get ignored or (in the worst case) they will actually listen to you and push out something totally rushed and sh*t-tastic in 3 months that we'll all have to live with for 5 years.


The vast majority of people are not asking CCP to start the work now.

What we are asking is for CCP to start talking to us, the player base about what ideas they have now.

CCP have a poor record for introducing very badly thought out ideas. They also have a bad habit of missing the bloody obvious.

Just look at there latest idea for spawning in Wormholes. Its beyond dumb.

So with that in mind what many players are asking for is that instead of CCP doing the usual of investing hundreds of man hours and then coming to us and hey look at this, is to actually go "guys here are some idea we have about where we want to take Null Sec what do you think?

The rework of Sov Mechanics is arguable the most important thing CCP have done in years, its a mammoth job and will ultimately shape Eve for years to come. Nobody wants another Incarna.

So lets start talking about it now.
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#46 - 2014-08-04 07:50:52 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Prince Kobol wrote:

The vast majority of people are not asking CCP to start the work now.

What we are asking is for CCP to start talking to us, the player base about what ideas they have now.

What your suggesting is reasonable and makes sense, but that's not what OP is asking:
Quote:
In the near future , so less than 3-4 months CCP will make changes to :
- SOV
- Capitals and Super Capitals


Yes , i'm asking CCP for making a commitment.

Making a commitment to alter sov, caps, and supers in 3 months is a terrible idea. And it's not the first such terrible idea to grace thse forums in recent weeks. There was another thread which was specifically asking for a comprehensive cap, super, and sov overhaul in 6-8 weeks (hyperion), which is even MORE moronic than this thread.

Instead of making demands, issuing timelines, demanding commitments, and generally behaving like pouting toddlers, why not actually make constructive posts asking ccp nicely what they intend to do with sov?
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2014-08-04 08:12:40 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:

Instead of making demands, issuing timelines, demanding commitments, and generally behaving like pouting toddlers, why not actually make constructive posts asking ccp nicely what they intend to do with sov?


As someone pointed out, for some people it is 10 years now, what do you feel would be the adequate time to get annoyed, 20 years, 30 years?

In the end, however me or you or anyone will get angry, the devs cannot spend 12 hours a day on forums, and even if they could, the industry policy unfortunately is to not engage. The screeching wheel is most likely to get oiled.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#48 - 2014-08-04 08:22:09 UTC
I told myself I wasn't going to reply to this thread. Once again, I make myself into a liar. Anyway, moving on...

To establish this, I used to be a game reviewer, a long time ago in a zip code far, far away. So when I say that hearing words like "timeline" and "commitment" used in the same sentence sets my teeth on edge, you will understand that I am speaking from experience here.

It's because, when it comes to software in general, and video games in particular, you can have fast, or you can have quality. You do not get both when complexity is involved. And in EVE, complexity is a given. So I stridently disagree with the notion of a "timeline".

But don't think that means that I disagree with the generic notion that sov needs redone.

Should something be done? Yes. Should something have been done by now? Yes. Should have something been done a long damned time ago? You betcha.

But words like "timeline" is how we end up with Dominion sovereignty systems.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Anthar Thebess
#49 - 2014-08-04 08:34:35 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

Instead of making demands, issuing timeliness, demanding commitments, and generally behaving like pouting toddlers, why not actually make constructive posts asking ccp nicely what they intend to do with sov?


As someone pointed out, for some people it is 10 years now, what do you feel would be the adequate time to get annoyed, 20 years, 30 years?

In the end, however me or you or anyone will get angry, the devs cannot spend 12 hours a day on forums, and even if they could, the industry policy unfortunately is to not engage. The screeching wheel is most likely to get oiled.


Well im not asking for a total re-haul of Sov and (super)capitals in 3 months , but some tweaks and changes that will put some positive changes in place. They don't have to be final - you can say that im asking from CCP some prof that they are willing to do something about current situation.
Those minor changes are the "commitment" that many player are waiting for.

What can be done in those 3-4 months?
1. making capital cap don't instantly recharge on stations ( much slower capital movements) , or even better cap recharging much slower on stations.
2. limiting remote change of cloning station in nullsec / lowsec to station you are currently docked. Just to limit deathcloning.
3. Increasing fuel consumption for all SUPER CAPITALS.

Why? To make dreads usable again.
What is the point using dreads , when they can be killed while in siege, tackled , have low EHP ... when you can replace them with titans : http://hq.c0ven.pl/kb/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=269886.
Titans : they are like dreads, but no siege, bigger EHP and burn the same amount of fuel.
You can also drop 20 motherships as their logistics.

Will those 3 changes fix all issues - no, but they are step in right direction. If those changes will be bad to eve - simply change stuff in the next expansion.

What are the next changes ?
Many ideas here
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=356024

Why people asking for fast changes , this can brake a lot of stuff.
I'm asking what fast changes - for some of them people are asking for almost 10 years now.
Can nullsec be worst after those 3 changes im proposing?
1. Slower movement for capitals, but still effective.
2. More dedication for timers.
3. More expensive moment , still as effective and unbalanced as now. But when you drop 40 supers to kill small pos - you are going to pay few billions in fuel cost instead 200mil while using dreads.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#50 - 2014-08-04 08:40:25 UTC
General Nusense wrote:
Falin Whalen wrote:
that ten man gang is going to find nobody in null because everyone is in Empire grinding L4s on a neutral alt, because running missions is the only thing that will scale with the amount of people needing to make ISK. Good job driving everyone out of null with your stupid idillyic vision of nullsec, that can't support more than 10 people in a system as it is.


So basically nothing will change and thanks for pointing out that any change suggested by CFC should be thrown away, since you spend most of your time in High Sec, Grinding LVL 4 missions.


Do you even know what we are asking for?
Prince Kobol
#51 - 2014-08-04 08:40:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I told myself I wasn't going to reply to this thread. Once again, I make myself into a liar. Anyway, moving on...

To establish this, I used to be a game reviewer, a long time ago in a zip code far, far away. So when I say that hearing words like "timeline" and "commitment" used in the same sentence sets my teeth on edge, you will understand that I am speaking from experience here.

It's because, when it comes to software in general, and video games in particular, you can have fast, or you can have quality. You do not get both when complexity is involved. And in EVE, complexity is a given. So I stridently disagree with the notion of a "timeline".

But don't think that means that I disagree with the generic notion that sov needs redone.

Should something be done? Yes. Should something have been done by now? Yes. Should have something been done a long damned time ago? You betcha.

But words like "timeline" is how we end up with Dominion sovereignty systems.


Completely agree, however this does not mean that CCP can not talk to us about what ideas they have and where they want to take Sov Mechanics.

I believe that null has more effect on Eve then any other areas of space. Null Sec Wars are a great thing for Eve and CCP need to change Sov Mechanics to encourage fighting. The more Wars the better.

To do this they have an amazing resource, the players. I swear there are people who play Eve who have more knowledge about the actual mechanics of fleet combat in Eve then most Devs.

These guys want to help, these guys have some amazing ideas, CCP needs to talk to these guys, use their knowledge to build a Sov System that encourages fighting, that promotes wars and destruction and makes wars a fun thing.

The recent AMA with CCP Seagull was an example on HOW NOT to interact with the player base. The vast majority was wait and see and marketing double talk.

CCP really need to communicate with the player base on this one before they start investing serious man hours.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#52 - 2014-08-04 08:47:28 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:

Completely agree, however this does not mean that CCP can not talk to us about what idea they have and where they want to take Sov Mechanics.


Idk about that, to be honest. Keeping it under their hats for as long as they can, or better still rolling them out iteratively, is necessary to prevent us a-holes from gaming the **** out of it before it's even released. The Test Server letting us help them iron out bugs or brutal flaws is sufficient if you ask me.


Quote:

To do this they have an amazing resource, the players. I swear there are people who play Eve who know more knowledge about the actual mechanics of fleet combat in Eve then most Devs.

These guys want to help, these guys have some amazing ideas, CCP needs to talk to these guys, use their knowledge to build a Sov System that encourages fighting, that promotes wars and destruction and makes wars a fun thing.


There already is a way to do this. Write a CSM member. Or all of them. That's what they're there for, after all.

But CCP can't just listen to every half cocked idea that the playerbase has. Sift through F&I sometime, we say some pretty ****ing stupid things, the vast, vast majority of which should be ignored.

And that's why the filter. Because everybody thinks they have "amazing ideas", whether that's true or not.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Tao Dolcino
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2014-08-04 09:54:15 UTC
/Support
CCP, it's time to show that you have the balls, the will and the wit.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2014-08-04 09:55:43 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Hello.

As your customer , can i have answers to simple questions.
In the near future , so less than 3-4 months CCP will make changes to :
- SOV
- Capitals and Super Capitals

If yes , to what degree.

Please don't spam this topic.
If you also want to know the answer to this question from CCP : like this topic and post :
Quote:
Support


Yes , i'm asking CCP for making a commitment.



Do you think if they Could they would not have done it already?

Just stop askign for non sense irrelevant things. If they coudl commit they woudl have by now, if they have not commited, that means they will not do it or that they cannot predict exaclty the time (and that is true in 100% of the cases on software development unless you already have it complete)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Anthar Thebess
#55 - 2014-08-04 10:11:15 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Do you think if they Could they would not have done it already?

Just stop askign for non sense irrelevant things. If they coudl commit they woudl have by now, if they have not commited, that means they will not do it or that they cannot predict exaclty the time (and that is true in 100% of the cases on software development unless you already have it complete)


Only they can do it.
Question is if they will focus on fixing those issues or put their work to next frigate / destroyer / cruiser / battlecruiser /battleship / their t2 variants rebalance , or next industry changes.

I also work in software development.
You want to limit :
- doping supers on every thing - increase fuel usage and their fuel bays to compensate.
- bloob mobility - increase fuel usage for titan bridges , or disallow this module from activating in forcefield. Increase bridge timer to force having 2 fleets - one bridged second guarding titan outside the forcefield for next 15 minutes.
- few day defensive timers for sov - just adjust probably 1 field in database.

All things are changes in database , very, very simple changes.
We are not talking about months or weeks for change this , but minutes including checking the documentation what to change.
Prince Kobol
#56 - 2014-08-04 10:15:45 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Do you think if they Could they would not have done it already?

Just stop askign for non sense irrelevant things. If they coudl commit they woudl have by now, if they have not commited, that means they will not do it or that they cannot predict exaclty the time (and that is true in 100% of the cases on software development unless you already have it complete)


Only they can do it.
Question is if they will focus on fixing those issues or put their work to next frigate / destroyer / cruiser / battlecruiser /battleship / their t2 variants rebalance , or next industry changes.

I also work in software development.
You want to limit :
- doping supers on every thing - increase fuel usage and their fuel bays to compensate.
- bloob mobility - increase fuel usage for titan bridges , or disallow this module from activating in forcefield. Increase bridge timer to force having 2 fleets - one bridged second guarding titan outside the forcefield for next 15 minutes.
- few day defensive timers for sov - just adjust probably 1 field in database.

All things are changes in database , very, very simple changes.
We are not talking about months or weeks for change this , but minutes including checking the documentation what to change.



Everything you have suggested will only make the bigger alliances stronger and the smaller alliances weaker.
Anthar Thebess
#57 - 2014-08-04 10:32:03 UTC
What im suggesting is not total fix , but part of those changes.

As for smaller alliances , how often they bridge few 255 man fleets?
How often they drop 50 supers to kill small tower or battlecruiser in some remote lowsec.
How many small groups now own sov ?
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2014-08-04 10:36:31 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

It's because, when it comes to software in general, and video games in particular, you can have fast, or you can have quality. You do not get both when complexity is involved. And in EVE, complexity is a given. So I stridently disagree with the notion of a "timeline".


How many years does a company need to be in business to void the "3 guys in a garage that dont know what they are doing" card? :)
Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
#59 - 2014-08-04 12:44:47 UTC
Sov and other nul mechanics are broken or at least in serious need of loving, agreed.

But:

Anthar Thebess wrote:
so less than 3-4 months CCP will make changes to :


Seriously? In that time frame all you can hope to get is a statement from CCP to the effect of 'well ok, we'll think about it and start planning'. If you expect anything more you're doing it wrong. If CCP put sov changes to top priority and did only that forgetting other changes to the game you'd be lucky to get the first sov related changes out in spring 2015.

Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#60 - 2014-08-04 12:46:19 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

It's because, when it comes to software in general, and video games in particular, you can have fast, or you can have quality. You do not get both when complexity is involved. And in EVE, complexity is a given. So I stridently disagree with the notion of a "timeline".


How many years does a company need to be in business to void the "3 guys in a garage that dont know what they are doing" card? :)


Ask Bethesda. Or Dice, if you really want some laughs.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.