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Theorycrafting a Phantasm - criticism please.
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Majuan Shuo
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1 - 2014-08-03 14:58:39 UTC
I threw this together after considering how I would like to fit a small gang Phantasm operating in 0.0, please point out flaws in its design - I would appreciate it.

[Phantasm, 0.0 Test]

Co-Processor II
Heat Sink II
Damage Control II
Reactor Control Unit II
Reactor Control Unit II

Gistum C-Type 10MN Afterburner
Warp Disruptor II
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Medium Diminishing Power System Drain I

Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I


Warrior II x3

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar
Nik Hanin
Divergent Booty
#2 - 2014-08-03 15:21:07 UTC
5 slots for fitting mods sounds like alot to me. Altough I do not have any persosnal experience woth the Phantasm.
NIFTYGetAtMe
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#3 - 2014-08-03 15:22:26 UTC  |  Edited by: NIFTYGetAtMe
I think it's effectiveness is really gimped by all those fitting mods. The days of the incredible active-tank phantasm are pretty much over unless you get REALLY crazy with the fit (pretty much all faction and a-type deadspace) and bling your pod with HG Crystals. Even then, a standard cap booster/XL Booster tank is the only way to fit it. This seems decent, but the damage and mobility is very sub-standard due to the lack of heat sinks and a nano. The Phantasm is one of those ships that can effectively engage ships bigger than itself, but this fit seems geared towards mostly small stuff. If your gang can make up for the lack of damage and mobility provided, it can still be effective.

I did some tinkering, and if you simply replace the XL booster with a large booster, you can drop all 3 low slot fitting mods and 1 fitting rig and replace them with 2 heat sinks, 1 nano and extender rig. I also used tech 2 shield rigs and a +4 CPU implant.

Lose the Disruptor. Small gangs have dedicated tacklers and the Phantasm is not a point ship.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#4 - 2014-08-03 15:53:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Ralph King-Griffin
yeah, iv no experience with the Phantasm but three fitting mods on a cruiser seems to much.
Edit: Five! Jesus man don't undock in that!

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#5 - 2014-08-03 16:09:11 UTC  |  Edited by: RavenPaine
I get the fit, or it's intention at least.

Would dropping the Power Drain help to also drop a fitting mod? Even a speed mod would be better than nothing...
Also, if you could make Power Diagnostics work, they'd actually help the tank.

And in the end, would a Harbinger/Nomen/Zealot just be a better, cheaper fit?
NIFTYGetAtMe
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6 - 2014-08-03 16:11:41 UTC
Dropping the Nos still requires 1 CPU mod and 1 Reactor Control and 1 CPU rig to fit.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#7 - 2014-08-03 16:11:50 UTC
1. You've mixed active tank (XLASB) with buffer tank (LSE). This is generally a bad idea.
2. You've severely over-tanked. This is a bad idea except for specialist fits. (i.e. bait)
3. You've accomplished 1&2 at the expense of damage and application.
4. You've mixed short-range guns with long-range tackle, and you've done so without a web.

Unless your goal is to act as shiny, heavily over-tanked bait for the rest of your gang, I'm going to have to say this fit is pretty miserable. I'd drop your tank to something more reasonable, switch to active or buffer tank, and with all the slots you've freed up by doing that add some damage/tracking mods and a web (and maybe a scram too).


Here's a piece of friendly advice: heavily over-tanking a ship will, outside of certain niche situations, will lead to it being more likely to get destroyed, not less likely.

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I predicted FAUXs
NIFTYGetAtMe
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#8 - 2014-08-03 16:15:13 UTC  |  Edited by: NIFTYGetAtMe
Remember that Ancillary Boosters are EHP Extenders and do not necessarily mean an active tank. Extenders + ASB is very common and very effective. What's generally frowned upon is using an active booster and extenders in unison.

I'll stand by my previous suggestion of using an LASB instead and getting a nano, more heat sinks and tech 2 shield rigs on there. Also, trade the disruptor for a web.
NIFTYGetAtMe
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#9 - 2014-08-03 17:23:28 UTC
bump.

I would love help craft a Phantasm, but this thread doesn't seem to be getting any attention.
Majuan Shuo
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2014-08-03 19:12:00 UTC
Sorry was out of the house. Yeah removing the nos makes a lot of sense.

Its not active tanking with extenders, ancillary boosters use no cap. And the long point is for the initial tackle, and then close the distance. Scram is better ASSUMMING you close the gap in time. Still, the consensus is remove some fitting mods, which I was afraid of. Advice taken, thank you.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#11 - 2014-08-03 19:34:57 UTC
Majuan Shuo wrote:
Sorry was out of the house. Yeah removing the nos makes a lot of sense.

Its not active tanking with extenders, ancillary boosters use no cap. And the long point is for the initial tackle, and then close the distance. Scram is better ASSUMMING you close the gap in time. Still, the consensus is remove some fitting mods, which I was afraid of. Advice taken, thank you.

Well if it's worth sacrificing five slots to then go for it but I verry much doubt it is.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

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Voyager Arran
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2014-08-04 01:55:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Voyager Arran
It's perfectly fine to think of an ASB as an extended buffer rather than a true active tank. You've still got a fixed amount of hit points to work with; an ASB just lets you squeeze more hit points into a slot than a shield extender would in exchange for having to space it out over the course of a fight and some extra fitting cost. An LSE alongside accomplishes the same goal and makes you a bit less vulnerable to getting blapped outright under a moment of pressure. You are definitely over committing with an XL-ASB though. If you've got to give up that much to make it fit, your ship just doesn't want to do it.

Here's a pretty cookie-cutter Brawling fit:

Quote:
[Phantasm, Brawling]
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Tracking Enhancer II

Gistum C-Type 10MN Afterburner
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Medium Diminishing Power System Drain I

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


You've got 47,000 EHP, the DPS of a Blaster Thorax at the edge of scram range, enough afterburner speed to keep just about anything there once they commit, with the added benefit of being able to immediately switch to Scorch and chase off anyone who gets cute ideas about doing things at long point range. The downside is that you aren't particularly nimble and you are fast only compared to other AB-only fits. You can probably walk away from a brawl you that's going the wrong way and Scorch range should do a lot to compensate for your limited mobility in small-gang fights, but you don't have much of an ability to force people into your situations and if you ever jump into a decently sized gatecamp that's likely the end of you.

EDIT: you can shoehorn an L-ASB in place of the second LSE, but the extra CPU cost is going to cost you something.
xPredat0rz
Project.Nova
The Initiative.
#13 - 2014-08-04 09:29:59 UTC
Voyager Arran wrote:
It's perfectly fine to think of an ASB as an extended buffer rather than a true active tank. You've still got a fixed amount of hit points to work with; an ASB just lets you squeeze more hit points into a slot than a shield extender would in exchange for having to space it out over the course of a fight and some extra fitting cost. An LSE alongside accomplishes the same goal and makes you a bit less vulnerable to getting blapped outright under a moment of pressure. You are definitely over committing with an XL-ASB though. If you've got to give up that much to make it fit, your ship just doesn't want to do it.

Here's a pretty cookie-cutter Brawling fit:

Quote:
[Phantasm, Brawling]
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Tracking Enhancer II

Gistum C-Type 10MN Afterburner
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Medium Diminishing Power System Drain I

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


You've got 47,000 EHP, the DPS of a Blaster Thorax at the edge of scram range, enough afterburner speed to keep just about anything there once they commit, with the added benefit of being able to immediately switch to Scorch and chase off anyone who gets cute ideas about doing things at long point range. The downside is that you aren't particularly nimble and you are fast only compared to other AB-only fits. You can probably walk away from a brawl you that's going the wrong way and Scorch range should do a lot to compensate for your limited mobility in small-gang fights, but you don't have much of an ability to force people into your situations and if you ever jump into a decently sized gatecamp that's likely the end of you.

EDIT: you can shoehorn an L-ASB in place of the second LSE, but the extra CPU cost is going to cost you something.


personally at that point if the hull can handle it upgrade the extender rigs to T2(Like 60m more) And sqeeze some more tank out of it. I like th Phantasm and I like the fact it got changed a bit. I havent been toying with fits for it much though as its still a niche ship