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Where is my Torpedo NAGA?

First post
Author
Denidil
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2011-12-08 14:48:53 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:
I was really having a good time in 100mn HML Nagas.


and that is why Naga's lost their missile hard points.

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.

Igualmentedos
Perkone
Caldari State
#62 - 2011-12-08 15:29:31 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Yes, YES, let's beat whoever was in charge of that with a candlestick, how dare they tweak a ship that was not released yet! Let's strangle them with a cordless mouse! Let's find out, who made that change again, was it CCP Tallest? No, no... Little Tim, the toymaker's son? The ghost of King Lysandus? Or was it... Yes! Stanley, that talking grapefruit from Passwall!


Thank you for that. Your post answered a lot of my questions, and I'm glad Caldari hybrid boats will get some love.

Good thing I just finished large guns!
Asurymen
Kryptonian Atomic Reclamation Agency
#63 - 2011-12-08 15:30:36 UTC
TL;DR Version:

"CCP AREN'T CATERING TO MY TASTES, I DON'T WANT A BALANCED GAME I WANT A GAME I WILL ENJOY HOW DARE THEY THINK ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE INSTEAD OF FOCUSING ON WHAT I WANT BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW"
Igualmentedos
Perkone
Caldari State
#64 - 2011-12-08 15:33:27 UTC
Asurymen wrote:
TL;DR Version:

"CCP AREN'T CATERING TO MY TASTES, I DON'T WANT A BALANCED GAME I WANT A GAME I WILL ENJOY HOW DARE THEY THINK ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE INSTEAD OF FOCUSING ON WHAT I WANT BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW"


That's not what was being said, chill out man.

Seriously, this is what's wrong with the Eve community.
Fidelium Mortis
Minor Major Miners LLC
#65 - 2011-12-08 15:33:38 UTC
I think the decision to go with hybrids was a good idea. It's one of the few shield/rail platforms that will actually be used in the game. Given the relatively low defense of the tier 3 BC they probably wouldn't be too effective as a PvE torp boat.

ICRS - Intergalactic Certified Rocket Surgeon

Barakkus
#66 - 2011-12-08 15:40:09 UTC
Haleuth wrote:

I just want to say, i'm really liking the new CCP these days. For years you never really discussed issues with the players on the forums. You never gave explanations.

Your post CCP Ytterbium and the expansion you guys have just delivered really show that you have changed for the better.

Thank you


They used to, then they stopped, now they started again :)

http://youtu.be/yytbDZrw1jc

Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#67 - 2011-12-08 16:02:35 UTC
people who QQ for torp nagas don't understand that the hybrid naga is the best T3BC for sustained DPS and survivability.

Frankly, it's the best of the four imho, so why cry when "your" race got the best one?

"but i only trained missiles boohooo"

So what? I'm the token khanid pirate, with the exception of the curse, khanid ships are awful and I too had to train missiles (and drones, and lasers) for "my" race.

Get over it.
Katabrok First
Apukaray Security
#68 - 2011-12-08 16:05:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Katabrok First
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Yes, YES, let's beat whoever was in charge of that with a candlestick, how dare they tweak a ship that was not released yet! Let's strangle them with a cordless mouse! Let's find out, who made that change again, was it CCP Tallest? No, no... Little Tim, the toymaker's son? The ghost of King Lysandus? Or was it... Yes! Stanley, that talking grapefruit from Passwall!

Grab the pitchforks, the torches! How dare they make us train for guns that shoot drones that shoot missiles, no hold it... it was Hybrids, or whatever, doesn't matter! The arrogance! Tie them to a chair and force them to watch a whole Twillight© season non-stop for hours! Sickle the cycly slight with a sickly popsicle! ...Oh no, wait! ! Let's just use... THE© WABBAJACK©!


More seriously, we knew from day one we could not please everybody with the Naga no matter what we did with it. The real problem is not because players are lazy to train hybrids, but due to Caldari Hybrid ships being mostly underpowered, which leaves Caldari-oriented pilots little choice but to specialize into missiles to stay competitive. The little Merlin, Moa, Ferox, Rokh and their tech2 variants have been abandoned in the orphanage, all ashamed of themselves and hiding in a corner until we can give them the fondling love they rightfully deserve. Poor things.

So, of course, it is a natural development that players get used to "Caldari is a synonym for missiles", but that doesn't make it true.

We tried to cater to everyone with the first split bonus version of the Naga, but it was a failure. As feedback rightfully pointed out, it had no defined role or special flavor on the field, so we had to decide to either go missiles or hybrids. And before you ask, sadly no, leaving both missiles and hybrids bonuses wasn't an option either, as that would have left the Naga too versatile as a whole, please remember it is a tech1 hull, not tech3.


So we had to weight the options here:

  • Torpedoes: that created quite a certain number of issues; while their damage output looks nice in theory, they actually lack projection and suffer from damage reduction due to their high explosion radius. This conflicted with the Naga paper-thin tank, lack of general mobility in the field. We could have given it Stealth Bomber-like Torpedo explosion velocity, velocity and flight time bonuses but it was conflicting with an already existing ship class while not delivering not much new value itself.

  • Cruise missiles: not much better as well, mainly because of their long travel time, which aren't that great for long range combat.

  • Thus, using missiles delivered little short or even long range appeal for this ship. However, going for hybrids made much more sense, and we found out giving it a hybrid damage bonus would complement its long range role very well, despite conflicting with the Talos a bit (which is a complete different topic on itself). It also fits the existing high tier Caldari philosophy better, as they are railgun platforms, or at least deeply want and tryingveryhard to be.


So yes, the Naga is hybrid-based and will stay like that. If you like to play Caldari, we recommend you start training for hybrids, because having a look at the underused railgun boats definitely is a main course menu.

Clap, clap, clap, clap!

You have no idea how heartening it is having this kind of response from CCP. After years of stonewalling, this new mentality on the job of client communication is what we needed to believe that CCP has make a 360º in its development direction and is now going to be like the CCP of old. CCP did what any sane company should do when at the edge of the precipice: It took a bold step ahead.

Congratulations.

PS.: The 360º and the step were intentional.
Sam Bowein
Sense Amid Madness
#69 - 2011-12-08 16:25:02 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Yes, YES, let's beat whoever was in charge of that with a candlestick, how dare they tweak a ship that was not released yet! Let's strangle them with a cordless mouse! Let's find out, who made that change again, was it CCP Tallest? No, no... Little Tim, the toymaker's son? The ghost of King Lysandus? Or was it... Yes! Stanley, that talking grapefruit from Passwall!

Grab the pitchforks, the torches! How dare they make us train for guns that shoot drones that shoot missiles, no hold it... it was Hybrids, or whatever, doesn't matter! The arrogance! Tie them to a chair and force them to watch a whole Twillight© season non-stop for hours! Sickle the cycly slight with a sickly popsicle! ...Oh no, wait! ! Let's just use... THE© WABBAJACK©!

That's nice but… Imperial or Stormcloak ? P

Also your mention of the wabbajack gave me and idea for the new year present.

What about ammunition that does random effect: damage, repair, ecm, or teleportation to a random system Lol
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#70 - 2011-12-08 16:39:58 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Yes, YES, let's beat whoever was in charge of that with a candlestick, how dare they tweak a ship that was not released yet! Let's strangle them with a cordless mouse! Let's find out, who made that change again, was it CCP Tallest? No, no... Little Tim, the toymaker's son? The ghost of King Lysandus? Or was it... Yes! Stanley, that talking grapefruit from Passwall!

Grab the pitchforks, the torches! How dare they make us train for guns that shoot drones that shoot missiles, no hold it... it was Hybrids, or whatever, doesn't matter! The arrogance! Tie them to a chair and force them to watch a whole Twillight© season non-stop for hours! Sickle the cycly slight with a sickly popsicle! ...Oh no, wait! ! Let's just use... THE© WABBAJACK©!


More seriously, we knew from day one we could not please everybody with the Naga no matter what we did with it. The real problem is not because players are lazy to train hybrids, but due to Caldari Hybrid ships being mostly underpowered, which leaves Caldari-oriented pilots little choice but to specialize into missiles to stay competitive. The little Merlin, Moa, Ferox, Rokh and their tech2 variants have been abandoned in the orphanage, all ashamed of themselves and hiding in a corner until we can give them the fondling love they rightfully deserve. Poor things.

So, of course, it is a natural development that players get used to "Caldari is a synonym for missiles", but that doesn't make it true.

We tried to cater to everyone with the first split bonus version of the Naga, but it was a failure. As feedback rightfully pointed out, it had no defined role or special flavor on the field, so we had to decide to either go missiles or hybrids. And before you ask, sadly no, leaving both missiles and hybrids bonuses wasn't an option either, as that would have left the Naga too versatile as a whole, please remember it is a tech1 hull, not tech3.


So we had to weight the options here:

  • Torpedoes: that created quite a certain number of issues; while their damage output looks nice in theory, they actually lack projection and suffer from damage reduction due to their high explosion radius. This conflicted with the Naga paper-thin tank, lack of general mobility in the field. We could have given it Stealth Bomber-like Torpedo explosion velocity, velocity and flight time bonuses but it was conflicting with an already existing ship class while not delivering not much new value itself.

  • Cruise missiles: not much better as well, mainly because of their long travel time, which aren't that great for long range combat.

  • Thus, using missiles delivered little short or even long range appeal for this ship. However, going for hybrids made much more sense, and we found out giving it a hybrid damage bonus would complement its long range role very well, despite conflicting with the Talos a bit (which is a complete different topic on itself). It also fits the existing high tier Caldari philosophy better, as they are railgun platforms, or at least deeply want and tryingveryhard to be.


So yes, the Naga is hybrid-based and will stay like that. If you like to play Caldari, we recommend you start training for hybrids, because having a look at the underused railgun boats definitely is a main course menu.


Goddamit that's a good post.

The Naga/Talos conflict exists but may not be too much of a problem. The Talos is faster and has more applied DPS, thanks to better tracking and drones. While they do overlap a bit I think there's still distinct roles for them.

Glad to see that you're keeping an eye on the other Caldari railboats. Not sure exactly how to fix them myself though. The optimal bonus is pretty basic Caldari nature, but as seen with the Naga, these ships need a damage bonus to not be hopelessly outclassed by others except at ranges where combat simply doesn't happen. Sure, you can drop the shield resist bonus for damage, but that shield resist bonus is powerful and useful and it would be a shame to see it go. Alternateively, just making rails better runs the risk of making the Gallente boats better than the Caldari ones at being rail platforms, which is silly.
Amro One
One.
#71 - 2011-12-08 16:41:27 UTC
To the morons that want a torp naga.

There are 8 gun slot BS in eve, so 8 gun BC makes sense.

There is only 1 ship in all of eve that can fit 8 torps and that worth a few 100b.
So a BC with 8 torps does NOT make sense.

Think before you speak morons.

P.S. - We all know you would ***** if the naga was forced to uses 6 torps.
Dbars Grinding
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#72 - 2011-12-08 16:54:04 UTC
lol hybrids.

I have more space likes than you. 

Biytor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#73 - 2011-12-08 17:14:54 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Yes, YES, let's beat whoever was in charge of that with a candlestick, how dare they tweak a ship that was not released yet! Let's strangle them with a cordless mouse! Let's find out, who made that change again, was it CCP Tallest? No, no... Little Tim, the toymaker's son? The ghost of King Lysandus? Or was it... Yes! Stanley, that talking grapefruit from Passwall!

Grab the pitchforks, the torches! How dare they make us train for guns that shoot drones that shoot missiles, no hold it... it was Hybrids, or whatever, doesn't matter! The arrogance! Tie them to a chair and force them to watch a whole Twillight© season non-stop for hours! Sickle the cycly slight with a sickly popsicle! ...Oh no, wait! ! Let's just use... THE© WABBAJACK©!


More seriously, we knew from day one we could not please everybody with the Naga no matter what we did with it. The real problem is not because players are lazy to train hybrids, but due to Caldari Hybrid ships being mostly underpowered, which leaves Caldari-oriented pilots little choice but to specialize into missiles to stay competitive. The little Merlin, Moa, Ferox, Rokh and their tech2 variants have been abandoned in the orphanage, all ashamed of themselves and hiding in a corner until we can give them the fondling love they rightfully deserve. Poor things.

So, of course, it is a natural development that players get used to "Caldari is a synonym for missiles", but that doesn't make it true.

We tried to cater to everyone with the first split bonus version of the Naga, but it was a failure. As feedback rightfully pointed out, it had no defined role or special flavor on the field, so we had to decide to either go missiles or hybrids. And before you ask, sadly no, leaving both missiles and hybrids bonuses wasn't an option either, as that would have left the Naga too versatile as a whole, please remember it is a tech1 hull, not tech3.


So we had to weight the options here:

  • Torpedoes: that created quite a certain number of issues; while their damage output looks nice in theory, they actually lack projection and suffer from damage reduction due to their high explosion radius. This conflicted with the Naga paper-thin tank, lack of general mobility in the field. We could have given it Stealth Bomber-like Torpedo explosion velocity, velocity and flight time bonuses but it was conflicting with an already existing ship class while not delivering not much new value itself.

  • Cruise missiles: not much better as well, mainly because of their long travel time, which aren't that great for long range combat.

  • Thus, using missiles delivered little short or even long range appeal for this ship. However, going for hybrids made much more sense, and we found out giving it a hybrid damage bonus would complement its long range role very well, despite conflicting with the Talos a bit (which is a complete different topic on itself). It also fits the existing high tier Caldari philosophy better, as they are railgun platforms, or at least deeply want and tryingveryhard to be.


So yes, the Naga is hybrid-based and will stay like that. If you like to play Caldari, we recommend you start training for hybrids, because having a look at the underused railgun boats definitely is a main course menu.




+1
I like the direction CCP took this ship. Moving away from the missile boat is a good thing for the Caldari. We already have a good selection of missile boats to begin with and we needed an alternative to those. With the hybrid changes and the advent of the Naga, I think we are on the right path.

But now CCP needs to go to the other races and give them some missile love. Give them some missile boats to play with!

Get ride of the split weapon systems. Why would you use a split weapon system in the 1st place? Make all the ships either gun or missile boats. No more of this half and half stuff. It's just tactically a bad idea.



Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#74 - 2011-12-08 17:16:40 UTC
Amro One wrote:
To the morons that want a torp naga.

There are 8 gun slot BS in eve, so 8 gun BC makes sense.

There is only 1 ship in all of eve that can fit 8 torps and that worth a few 100b.
So a BC with 8 torps does NOT make sense.

Think before you speak morons.

P.S. - We all know you would ***** if the naga was forced to uses 6 torps.


No need to be such an ass. eAnonymity FTW I guess.

The main complaint is that many dedicated Caldari pilots went nearly solely into missiles, so for many the Naga is currently out of reach without a couple months training (for T2). I'd have loved a torp boat personally. Initially the hybridization of the Naga made me sad and right it off... however hybrids are currently being trained now so I'll be getting one of these puppies with T1 guns initially to get a feel for it... maybe see how it does against a few customs offices or the like. I like the potential role they can play in a POS bash, especially in a C1. I don't know if the tank would survive the guns, however for taking it to reinforced once the guns are incapped... it holds promise.

Basically, due to the prior Caldari paradigm, this change put the Naga as a "future" ship for many as opposed to the others, which were instantly "current" ships. That's all. People aren't looking forwards to training up the guns, but in time, they will.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#75 - 2011-12-08 17:22:12 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
The main complaint is that many dedicated Caldari pilots went nearly solely into missiles
Pff. That just made them poorly dedicated… P
Mukutep
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2011-12-08 17:36:36 UTC
KrakizBad wrote:
Sniper fleets more than 150km from a target will never again be used except by idiots who don't know what a scan probe is.


What is this "skan proab" you speak of?!
Igualmentedos
Perkone
Caldari State
#77 - 2011-12-08 18:34:17 UTC
Amro One wrote:
To the morons that want a torp naga.

There are 8 gun slot BS in eve, so 8 gun BC makes sense.

There is only 1 ship in all of eve that can fit 8 torps and that worth a few 100b.
So a BC with 8 torps does NOT make sense.

Think before you speak morons.

P.S. - We all know you would ***** if the naga was forced to uses 6 torps.


Hey, try to hide your butthurt a little better. Nobody said anything about 8 launchers being the reason torps were taken away. Read the dev's post and stop being an obnoxious neckbeard.

Ugh... 2/10 man you're better than this.
Qin Shi Huang
Doomheim
#78 - 2011-12-08 18:40:31 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Amro One wrote:
To the morons that want a torp naga.

There are 8 gun slot BS in eve, so 8 gun BC makes sense.

There is only 1 ship in all of eve that can fit 8 torps and that worth a few 100b.
So a BC with 8 torps does NOT make sense.

Think before you speak morons.

P.S. - We all know you would ***** if the naga was forced to uses 6 torps.


No need to be such an ass. eAnonymity FTW I guess.

The main complaint is that many dedicated Caldari pilots went nearly solely into missiles, so for many the Naga is currently out of reach without a couple months training (for T2). I'd have loved a torp boat personally. Initially the hybridization of the Naga made me sad and right it off... however hybrids are currently being trained now so I'll be getting one of these puppies with T1 guns initially to get a feel for it... maybe see how it does against a few customs offices or the like. I like the potential role they can play in a POS bash, especially in a C1. I don't know if the tank would survive the guns, however for taking it to reinforced once the guns are incapped... it holds promise.

Basically, due to the prior Caldari paradigm, this change put the Naga as a "future" ship for many as opposed to the others, which were instantly "current" ships. That's all. People aren't looking forwards to training up the guns, but in time, they will.


+1 I have avoided hybrids for almost two years as I was planning to take my Caldari character directly to capitals. My first CEO gave me the sound advice to only fly what you fly well and specialize in a few things instead of being a jack of all trades. It's easy to do everything when you have 40M SP, but around 10-20M you'll have to prioritize and make sacrifices.

.

Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#79 - 2011-12-08 18:46:09 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
The main complaint is that many dedicated Caldari pilots went nearly solely into missiles
Pff. That just made them poorly dedicated… P


Perhaps, but I'm a good example... my combat pilot did exactly this. All I've heard of training into is the drake, the drake or optionally the drake. Hence, missile dedication.

Now it like... gunz? Gunz. Guhns? Guuuuuunnnnnnzzzzzzssss....

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

Jhan Niber
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#80 - 2011-12-08 19:44:13 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
The main complaint is that many dedicated Caldari pilots went nearly solely into missiles
Pff. That just made them poorly dedicated… P


Perhaps, but I'm a good example... my combat pilot did exactly this. All I've heard of training into is the drake, the drake or optionally the drake. Hence, missile dedication.

Now it like... gunz? Gunz. Guhns? Guuuuuunnnnnnzzzzzzssss....


So, you're learning that some of your racial ships aren't quite fitting into it's stereotypical categories just like every other race has. I'm a pure Minmatar pilot and I have focused primarily on Projectile weapons, but if I want to fly a Typhoon well I'm going to have to learn to use missiles and drones well. Amarrians have their few missile based ships as well like the Malediction, the Sacrilege, and certain versions of the Legion. The Gallente are very drone and armor heavy, but then you have the Hyperion which is a big shield tanked blaster boat, so just be happy they didn't force the Naga to work best with armor on top of everything.