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LvL 4 FW Mission Imbalance: Issue?

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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#201 - 2014-07-28 18:48:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Cearain wrote:

In any event I think we are getting away from the topic. Would you agree that if fw missions were nerfed relative to plexing then more people would plex? Do you agree that more people plexing would mean more people fighting for plexes?


Well, while we are at tier 4 im sure mission running will pick up pace. However, during the last month at tier 2 i didnt personally see, or hear more than 2 people on comms talk about running a set of missions. Ive done 2 sets of missions myself this year.

Cant speak for the min/amarr wz but its generally a non issue over here. Which is why it comes as no surprise to see you fixate on it.

It is a nice mechanic to generate LP should the enemy failscade leaving no offensive or defensive plexing to be done. Generally the reward levels of all LP sources manage themselves through supply and demand at the market level. i am neutral to the idea of a mission LP nerf, or an uncoupling of missions from the tier system. There are good arguments for both sides.

As for the number of kills per system per hour, to answer your question on behalf of the gal/cal warzone, its fine. Which is lucky really since there is no solution to it if it were a problem.
Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#202 - 2014-07-28 20:32:05 UTC
Cearain wrote:

I am not saying nerf "everything else." FW mission running pays stupid amounts of lp and not only makes the entire tier system irrelevant but ruins other lp stores as well.

But yes plexing and the occupancy war would become economically relevant if mission lp was nerfed. More people would then plex. More people in plexes will mean more pvp in plexes. And this is good for faction war.


sorry but this dont compute.
people have whined for years that only pvp'ers sholud be in plexes, that they dont want people to farm them for lp and now your excuse to nerf missions is "so more people will want to farm them for lp"?
did you think about it throughly?

Quote:

If the missions were nerfed so that you could gain much more lp from plexing then the whole "tier system" of the occupancy war would have some economic relevance. Now it's just very hard to care.

people should run plexes to "win the war", not to make lp.
lp are an added bounus but if you make them the main focus you get farming and system bouncing like before kronos.
Quote:

When Missions are paying out 5xs as much lp as you can get from doing occupancy plexing the value of the lp from occupancy plexing is watered down so much its not worth doing at all.

so basically you are in fw only for the isks.
why you dont like missions then? from what you're saying they should be better for you than plexing.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#203 - 2014-07-28 21:45:09 UTC
it use to be equal, where all factions being the same amount of effort, then they changed the agro mechanics. Easiest way is to undo that change for FW missions.


I don't run them unless the faction is tier 4, before the major changes I had 4 corps (one in each faction) that all could run missions so I could pick and chose the most profitable faction when I went to run them.


In the thread there were some that claimed a SB was slower than a T3. Can I get an explanation on that? I've tried to fit a(any) t3 to be able to 500-550 dps at 70km, warp cloaked at 5.5au/s all before implant and have been coming up short.

Miriya Zakalwe
World Wide Welp
#204 - 2014-07-29 00:11:15 UTC
Cearain wrote:

In any event I think we are getting away from the topic. Would you agree that if fw missions were nerfed relative to plexing then more people would plex? Do you agree that more people plexing would mean more people fighting for plexes?


No, of course not. That's total speculation, a complete nonsequitur, and in my opinion ridiculous. If you think the primary reason that the Amarr militia cannot flip systems is that the Amarr are too busy missioning, you need to spend more time in the war zone.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#205 - 2014-07-29 00:21:41 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:
In the thread there were some that claimed a SB was slower than a T3. Can I get an explanation on that? I've tried to fit a(any) t3 to be able to 500-550 dps at 70km, warp cloaked at 5.5au/s all before implant and have been coming up short.

I'd use an SB for any Min / Cal / Amarr mission, really. No reason not to at all - you can sig tank the rats and don't have to deal with jams.

You use T3s for Gallente because of missiles and jams.

Cloaky T3s can hit 450-500dps pretty easily with close range fits, if not more. Proteus and Tengu can hit 4.9 AU/sec warp speed as well. Oh, and you can have that plus a 500+ DPS tank in the same package.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Miriya Zakalwe
World Wide Welp
#206 - 2014-07-29 00:55:18 UTC
Really, if anything, the problem with FW now is that there is *too much* plexing. The reason that the Farmatar are an unbreakable brick is that once they hit T4, a vast armada of deplexing farmers have kept the systems easily controlled. Meanwhile, the Amarr would need to take a disproportionate number of plexes to compensate. If the recent weeks have shown anything, it is how utterly screwed they are.

Just like last year, this is going to continue until the Plex farmers are bored or rich enough.

Mission running is completely orthogonal to the problems facing FW. Totally unrelated.
Cromwell Savage
The Screaming Seagulls
#207 - 2014-07-29 01:45:39 UTC
Miriya Zakalwe wrote:


Mission running is completely orthogonal to the problems facing FW. Totally unrelated.


Not totally so. It's all about the LP...

Cut LP earned from plexing (which will cause massive, massive tears but has been way too generous for far too long) so that missions become the bread-n-butter (again) for earning LP...
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#208 - 2014-07-29 03:58:06 UTC
Miriya Zakalwe wrote:
Cearain wrote:

In any event I think we are getting away from the topic. Would you agree that if fw missions were nerfed relative to plexing then more people would plex? Do you agree that more people plexing would mean more people fighting for plexes?


No, of course not. That's total speculation, a complete nonsequitur, and in my opinion ridiculous. If you think the primary reason that the Amarr militia cannot flip systems is that the Amarr are too busy missioning, you need to spend more time in the war zone.



What you quoted from me is 2 questions not an argument let alone a nonsequitur. But the answer to both questions is yes. And the answer is pretty easy to come to. Before inferno missions paid much more than plexes because plexes paid nothing but tags. After inferno there has been many more people running plexes and many more fights in plexes.


I never suggested Amarr spend too much time running amarr fw missions that is why they are not flipping systems. You might want to read what I actually wrote.

Most people in amarr don't care about tiers because it's easy to put an alt in minmatar and run missions. I have been in the warzone and there are allot of purifiers. They are allot of alts but the mains are not necessarily in minmatar.

You will occasionally get a push like huola for the lulz but thats about it. Its a rare person that cares about the entire tier system. I think the last person I knew that cared about it recently biomassed his character.

There are many reasons that amarr do not bother to plex and flip systems and gain tiers among them are: 1) is that it is very boring because if you really want to gain tiers you will run plexes as efficiently as possible and that means running them in quiet systems. 2) There really is no reason to gain tiers when you can just put an alt in minmatar and run their fw missions for lp and make much more of it than you ever could plexing.


Miriya Zakalwe wrote:
Really, if anything, the problem with FW now is that there is *too much* plexing. The reason that the Farmatar are an unbreakable brick is that once they hit T4, a vast armada of deplexing farmers have kept the systems easily controlled. Meanwhile, the Amarr would need to take a disproportionate number of plexes to compensate. If the recent weeks have shown anything, it is how utterly screwed they are..


Do you know what the calculation for lp for dplexing is?
Miriya Zakalwe wrote:

Just like last year, this is going to continue until the Plex farmers are bored or rich enough.

Mission running is completely orthogonal to the problems facing FW. Totally unrelated.


If missions were removed and the only way to get fw lp was to run plexes you would see a very clear change in plexing and how militias fight for tiers.


I am not saying I think that would be a good idea necessarily, but I don't agree that missions have no effect on fw at large .

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#209 - 2014-07-29 13:25:52 UTC
Sara Tosa wrote:
Cearain wrote:

I am not saying nerf "everything else." FW mission running pays stupid amounts of lp and not only makes the entire tier system irrelevant but ruins other lp stores as well.

But yes plexing and the occupancy war would become economically relevant if mission lp was nerfed. More people would then plex. More people in plexes will mean more pvp in plexes. And this is good for faction war.


sorry but this dont compute.
people have whined for years that only pvp'ers sholud be in plexes, that they dont want people to farm them for lp and now your excuse to nerf missions is "so more people will want to farm them for lp"?
did you think about it throughly?

Quote:

If the missions were nerfed so that you could gain much more lp from plexing then the whole "tier system" of the occupancy war would have some economic relevance. Now it's just very hard to care.

people should run plexes to "win the war", not to make lp..




You actually can't win the war. But you can try to be "winning." But its not an "either or" question. Some people might have wanted lp for plexing removed but that was never my issue, or what most people wanted. The problem is that you can hide and seek plex without fighting. Things like timer rollbacks and better intel about plex timers being run would prevent this. CCP said they will implement these changes and if they do it right fw will be fixed.


Sara Tosa wrote:
Cearain wrote:

When Missions are paying out 5xs as much lp as you can get from doing occupancy plexing the value of the lp from occupancy plexing is watered down so much its not worth doing at all.

so basically you are in fw only for the isks.
why you dont like missions then? from what you're saying they should be better for you than plexing.


Again you assume people are only in the war for one and only one reason. Some people fight in fw for the a variety of reasons. I have/do run missions and have made/make billions of isk. I don't mind that people want to make billions of isk in fw. I just think that the large amount of lp made from missions effects peoples motivations to plex and gain tiers.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#210 - 2014-07-29 13:56:28 UTC
Why do you keep posting?

JUSTK is recruiting
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#211 - 2014-07-29 14:03:08 UTC
Cearain wrote:
I just think that the large amount of lp made from missions effects peoples motivations to plex and gain tiers.

Tiers, in and of themselves, have no impact on warzone control. The one and only reason to push for higher tiers is to increase LP income overall.

Fun fact: You can control every single system in the warzone and still be at Tier 1.

If Tier was directly related to percentage of total systems held, rather than primarily being determined by how many upgrades your side dumps LP into, then I'd say that it had some connection to plexing and warzone fluidity. But it doesn't.

Warzone fluidity is determined by one thing and one thing only: how many folks are willing to push systems to vulnerable and flip them. Farmers don't bash hubs, friends... folks with real ships and real guns do.

I will grant that higher tier motivates more plexing, but those who would plex rather than mission will do so regardless of tier. Same for the reverse. Simple fact is that all else being equal, you get about 2x the LP/hour running missions than running plexes... probably more with the respawning rats these days. You'd have to nerf missions to pay less than plexing to cause a significant shift, and doing so would just release the plague of farmers back into plexes - which would basically undo all the good from the Kronos changes.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#212 - 2014-07-29 14:09:55 UTC
I don't see many FW people mentioning that these missions are still far too profitable and too easy, risk-free bombers or not.

I guess this is just one of those horrific broken things like wormhole space that will never get fixed properly, because a bunch of people exploit it and would cry on the forums, which ccp sees as a bad thing.

also the rat AI changes that prevent pvpers from killing mission runners, when is that being fixed? it's absolutely awful. in the extremely rare event that I can find someone stupid enough that their bomber isn't completely pvp immune, I have to warp out in hull because I'm getting trashed by 30 rats.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#213 - 2014-07-29 14:16:21 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
I don't see many FW people mentioning that these missions are still far too profitable and too easy, risk-free bombers or not.
It's a small price for CCP to pay for generating 90% of Eve's content this summer. Lol
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#214 - 2014-07-29 14:33:01 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Cearain wrote:
I just think that the large amount of lp made from missions effects peoples motivations to plex and gain tiers.

Tiers, in and of themselves, have no impact on warzone control. The one and only reason to push for higher tiers is to increase LP income overall.

Fun fact: You can control every single system in the warzone and still be at Tier 1.

If Tier was directly related to percentage of total systems held, rather than primarily being determined by how many upgrades your side dumps LP into, then I'd say that it had some connection to plexing and warzone fluidity. But it doesn't.

Warzone fluidity is determined by one thing and one thing only: how many folks are willing to push systems to vulnerable and flip them. Farmers don't bash hubs, friends... folks with real ships and real guns do.

I will grant that higher tier motivates more plexing, but those who would plex rather than mission will do so regardless of tier. Same for the reverse. Simple fact is that all else being equal, you get about 2x the LP/hour running missions than running plexes... probably more with the respawning rats these days. You'd have to nerf missions to pay less than plexing to cause a significant shift, and doing so would just release the plague of farmers back into plexes - which would basically undo all the good from the Kronos changes.


One of the reasons for the Tier3 push was to counter squid VP numbers (it worked).

JUSTK is recruiting
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#215 - 2014-07-29 15:07:13 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
I don't see many FW people mentioning that these missions are still far too profitable and too easy, risk-free bombers or not.

I guess this is just one of those horrific broken things like wormhole space that will never get fixed properly, because a bunch of people exploit it and would cry on the forums, which ccp sees as a bad thing.

also the rat AI changes that prevent pvpers from killing mission runners, when is that being fixed? it's absolutely awful. in the extremely rare event that I can find someone stupid enough that their bomber isn't completely pvp immune, I have to warp out in hull because I'm getting trashed by 30 rats.


Awww, you can't catch a mission runner running a FW mission because of rats. How cute. Working as intended.

Rats switching aggro is one of the better things that happened to missions. Now you don't have one guy speed tanking all the aggro, while his alt comes in and kills the mission objective.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#216 - 2014-07-29 15:13:13 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
I don't see many FW people mentioning that these missions are still far too profitable and too easy, risk-free bombers or not.

I guess this is just one of those horrific broken things like wormhole space that will never get fixed properly, because a bunch of people exploit it and would cry on the forums, which ccp sees as a bad thing.

also the rat AI changes that prevent pvpers from killing mission runners, when is that being fixed? it's absolutely awful. in the extremely rare event that I can find someone stupid enough that their bomber isn't completely pvp immune, I have to warp out in hull because I'm getting trashed by 30 rats.


Awww, you can't catch a mission runner running a FW mission because of rats. How cute. Working as intended.

Rats switching aggro is one of the better things that happened to missions. Now you don't have one guy speed tanking all the aggro, while his alt comes in and kills the mission objective.


some guy speed tanking or mwding up to your bomber should draw much less aggro than your bomber, since they are not shooting any rats. it makes no sense the way it is now.
MonkeyBusiness Thiesant
Pandemic Unicorns
#217 - 2014-07-29 15:40:08 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:

In the thread there were some that claimed a SB was slower than a T3. Can I get an explanation on that? I've tried to fit a(any) t3 to be able to 500-550 dps at 70km, warp cloaked at 5.5au/s all before implant and have been coming up short.


Cloaky ham tengu can get a little over 500dps - I suppose you could go faction bcs for a bit more. Not really sure what benefit there is though, it's definitely not quicker overall because you spend much more time warping around.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#218 - 2014-07-29 15:55:57 UTC
MonkeyBusiness Thiesant wrote:
Lady Rift wrote:

In the thread there were some that claimed a SB was slower than a T3. Can I get an explanation on that? I've tried to fit a(any) t3 to be able to 500-550 dps at 70km, warp cloaked at 5.5au/s all before implant and have been coming up short.


Cloaky ham tengu can get a little over 500dps - I suppose you could go faction bcs for a bit more. Not really sure what benefit there is though, it's definitely not quicker overall because you spend much more time warping around.

Fit a Grav Cap subsystem - you get 4.9 AU/sec, and better align times than a bomber. Same / better travel time on average.

And yes, Cal / MIn / Amarr missions are still far too easy for the risk / ship investment. The fact that Gallente LP store values are still as high as they are even after us being in Tier 3 for so long and Tier 4 for several days should give a hint at how much less they are run in comparison.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#219 - 2014-07-29 16:03:46 UTC
Miriya Zakalwe wrote:
Mission running is completely orthogonal to the problems facing FW. Totally unrelated.


Then make it unrelated. Remove tier bonuses from mission LP payouts.

Or make it totally related. Get rid of all current FW missions and make the agents give plex capture missions.

Right now it benefits from bonuses while contributing nothing to warzone, No sir. If you want to reap the benefits of FW, please come and join the fight with your main, not with your 2 month old SB alt.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#220 - 2014-07-29 16:04:55 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
I don't see many FW people mentioning that these missions are still far too profitable and too easy, risk-free bombers or not.

I guess this is just one of those horrific broken things like wormhole space that will never get fixed properly, because a bunch of people exploit it and would cry on the forums, which ccp sees as a bad thing.

also the rat AI changes that prevent pvpers from killing mission runners, when is that being fixed? it's absolutely awful. in the extremely rare event that I can find someone stupid enough that their bomber isn't completely pvp immune, I have to warp out in hull because I'm getting trashed by 30 rats.


Awww, you can't catch a mission runner running a FW mission because of rats. How cute. Working as intended.

Rats switching aggro is one of the better things that happened to missions. Now you don't have one guy speed tanking all the aggro, while his alt comes in and kills the mission objective.


some guy speed tanking or mwding up to your bomber should draw much less aggro than your bomber, since they are not shooting any rats. it makes no sense the way it is now.



You might think amarr rats wouldn't shoot amarr militia either. But the rats are almost as bad as the players at shooting their own team.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815