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Teams
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Dante Fachis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2014-07-24 20:16:33 UTC
I figure maybe this has been addressed elsewhere but sifting through a lot of forum posts is hard work.

When I look at teams in the industry window (teams available for bidding, that is), it often shows some of the team members in grey. Is that just some graphical weirdness (like I've seen with BPCs currently not in any jobs being greyed out anyway), or does it mean something?

I'm not sure if this only happens when I have a filter selected or not, I haven't had a chance to experiment.

thanks in advance
Qoi
Exert Force
#2 - 2014-07-24 20:20:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Qoi
That means their boni do not apply to the currently selected blueprint. If none of them apply, the team is actually invisible. This makes the fact that there is no button to deselect the currently selected blueprint slightly annoying. Edit: Oh, you can actually use the right click menu for that.

http://eve-industry.org
Dante Fachis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2014-07-24 20:39:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Dante Fachis
aah, that makes perfect sense, in context. thanks a lot.

I'm still unclear on the overall strategy of teams. Not that I'm a big player in industry, but for the sake of discussion, why would I bid on a team for my system if everyone else who builds in that system will also make use of it? It seems naive to expect that my team's member mix will be so tailored to my needs that very few others will be able to take advantage as well. And then, in such a case, aren't I paying extra to give bonuses to my competitors?

I would have to have confidence that the bonuses I might get from winning a team auction will outweigh the cost of renting that team in the first place, and I just haven't set up the spreadsheets for this just yet. :)

edit: spelling
Qoi
Exert Force
#4 - 2014-07-24 20:52:58 UTC
Well, traditionally industrial players never speak with each other. If that were to change, you could each put in a small bid for a very good team in your system.. in theory anyway. (the bids are pooled together) It probably makes more sense in WH space and 0.0 where you have more control over your industrial environment. Hats off to the person in J125853 hiring all the teams. :-)

http://eve-industry.org
Kireitsugu Secheh
Les chips electriques
#5 - 2014-07-25 06:26:46 UTC
CCP should make it so teams have a move time according to number of jumps they are asked to move .
And we will send them all to the sleepers.

How to clone swap in worm holes
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2014-07-25 06:34:09 UTC
anyone know how bids work? it seems like i the amount of money i have bid is more than i remember putting down.
Bydlo Moneymaker
Celestial Machines
#7 - 2014-07-25 12:31:06 UTC
Rowells wrote:
anyone know how bids work? it seems like i the amount of money i have bid is more than i remember putting down.


Yes:

1. you bid 100,000 for a team

2. you get outbid

3. you think: "LOL I WILL JUST BID ONE ISK MORE!

4. you enter your new bid: "100,001"

5. the system adds your bids. the new highest bid is 200,001 - and you are now 200,001 ISK poorer.


tldr: it doesn't work like ebay.
Qoi
Exert Force
#8 - 2014-07-25 13:21:59 UTC
When you submit a bid, you are increasing the bid of that solar system by the amount you enter.

The solar system with the highest bid wins the auction.

http://eve-industry.org
Karash Amerius
The Seven Shadows
Scotch And Tea.
#9 - 2014-07-25 16:08:32 UTC
Qoi wrote:
That means their boni do not apply to the currently selected blueprint. If none of them apply, the team is actually invisible. This makes the fact that there is no button to deselect the currently selected blueprint slightly annoying.


From my memory last night, I believe you can right click on the print and unload it from the UI.

Additionally, I have no idea how the hell the bidding process works. My button is just greyed out all the time.

Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka
Kaaii
Kaaii-Net Research Labs
#10 - 2014-07-25 22:57:58 UTC


So,

I want to build say, components for T2, I drop a print, say quantum procs, into the mix, and sort the teams

Up comes various teams with different specialties.

Some Research (hourglass?)
Some Diamond (production(?)
with neg modifiers.

I clk the auction field, say I want them in my system, and bid on the cost (to move/salary per day?)

Auction ends at n
How do I know if I won, got out bid or anything, there is no feed back. Do I have to keep checking on my team (no "saved" view)?

Sort of confusing...
Ginger Barbarella
#11 - 2014-07-26 01:25:21 UTC
I wonder if anyone has run the numbers yet on the cost difference between not using a team (including the 10% system tax) and the "salary" price (plus depreciation if your bid brought the team to your system) plus the system tax against the mineral or time savings a team provides for job runs?

I would be seriously curious to see those numbers (and no, I don't trust any CCP or CSM numbers on this issue at all).

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Qoi
Exert Force
#12 - 2014-07-26 12:22:20 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
I wonder if anyone has run the numbers yet on the cost difference between not using a team (including the 10% system tax) and the "salary" price (plus depreciation if your bid brought the team to your system) plus the system tax against the mineral or time savings a team provides for job runs?

I would be seriously curious to see those numbers (and no, I don't trust any CCP or CSM numbers on this issue at all).


Well, these calculations require a metric f*ton of inputs.

I built this http://bp.kiwi.frubar.net/teamscout/?g=547 it will only work for Manufacturing Krewes Teams and it will only show your the change in profit per hour for one item group.

So if you have one group that specializes in Capital Ship, Dreadnought, Dreadnought, it will of course have a much better profitability when you select Dreadnought compared to selecting Carrier.

The numbers are ballpark estimates naturally.

http://eve-industry.org
Mal Nina
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2014-07-26 12:36:05 UTC
Actually I did it the long way, sat at the interface and found some very funny numbers whereby for certain products there was not a single team that lowered the costs once you paid just their salary. I was not even working their bid or hiring costs across production. So hats off to the industrialists that hired them, hope it was for something I was not interested in. (secretly I hope it was because you just gave me a big advantage in cost of manufacturing. )
Mistah Ewedynao
Ice Axe Psycho Killers
#14 - 2014-07-26 14:31:20 UTC
Every team I have plugged in to a job to check has just cost me more with little or no benefit.

The fail cascade that is Cirius (Circus) continues. Ooodles of stuff still broke and no patch today.

Nerf Goons

Nuke em from orbit....it's the only way to be sure.
Ginger Barbarella
#15 - 2014-07-26 14:37:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Ginger Barbarella
Mal Nina wrote:
Actually I did it the long way, sat at the interface and found some very funny numbers whereby for certain products there was not a single team that lowered the costs once you paid just their salary. I was not even working their bid or hiring costs across production. So hats off to the industrialists that hired them, hope it was for something I was not interested in. (secretly I hope it was because you just gave me a big advantage in cost of manufacturing. )


Mistah Ewedynao wrote:
Every team I have plugged in to a job to check has just cost me more with little or no benefit.

The fail cascade that is Cirius (Circus) continues. Ooodles of stuff still broke and no patch today.


I'm not surprised others are seeing the same "WTF?" with Teams that I am. This new concept neither works for beginning industrialists (more expensive than just doing the work without them) nor for high sec in general, I'd wager. Yet another bump for nullies? That's yet to be seen; I don't know what their numbers are in this Teams stuff.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Dante Fachis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2014-07-28 15:10:08 UTC
good to see I'm not the only one somewhat befuddled about the benefit of teams.

maybe CCP will tweak the bonuses.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#17 - 2014-07-28 16:33:54 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Mal Nina wrote:
Actually I did it the long way, sat at the interface and found some very funny numbers whereby for certain products there was not a single team that lowered the costs once you paid just their salary. I was not even working their bid or hiring costs across production. So hats off to the industrialists that hired them, hope it was for something I was not interested in. (secretly I hope it was because you just gave me a big advantage in cost of manufacturing. )


Mistah Ewedynao wrote:
Every team I have plugged in to a job to check has just cost me more with little or no benefit.

The fail cascade that is Cirius (Circus) continues. Ooodles of stuff still broke and no patch today.


I'm not surprised others are seeing the same "WTF?" with Teams that I am. This new concept neither works for beginning industrialists (more expensive than just doing the work without them) nor for high sec in general, I'd wager. Yet another bump for nullies? That's yet to be seen; I don't know what their numbers are in this Teams stuff.


Everything is still shaking out ... and we have weeks (months, years) of glut that needs to dwindle before prices rise to the point where the team thing makes economic sense "all the time" .

However, with that said, the idea I'm getting is that the high-end industrialists will be able to compete (for example) in systems 5j from Jita, because they can profit from ~anything~ and have good connections for minerals in bulk already, not to mention 10s or 100s of billions sunk in BPOs that they don't necessarily want to move.

The mid-grade guys will be a bit farther out, where system taxes are lower ... and may or may not be mobile. Paying a little extra to get an extra couple of hours lead time over the "big guys" will make sense -- first to market gets the profits, after all.

low-end guys will be on the fringes, where taxes are lowest, until they can get to a point where they can afford to be semi-static in the higher-tax systems (e.g. "putting up a POS") and still make a profit.


Now, this also opens up direct PVP opportunities, because you'll have vested interests in keeping the "other guys" downtrodden, or completely out of "your system" ... not to mention pulling in several mining corps to keep your mineral income steady.


Now, granted this is a pipe dream, and will likely never happen, because the hisec mentality (at least that I've experienced) is "Me first, friends / corpies / allies later ... if at all".

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
SJ Astralana
Syncore
#18 - 2014-07-29 08:51:16 UTC  |  Edited by: SJ Astralana
Teams make sense when you have a production chain that can leverage their advantage. The large industrialist will multiply the cost saving against sales that range into the 10s of billions, make a valuation, and price any smaller industrialist out of the bid. The teams that have been auctioned off so far are so underpriced it's laughable. This is of course temporary.

This change has tragically (honest opinion coming from a large industrialist) skewed the playing field against the entry level builder.

Hyperdrive your production business: Eve Production Manager

George Gouillot
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2014-07-29 11:15:15 UTC
Mistah Ewedynao wrote:
Every team I have plugged in to a job to check has just cost me more with little or no benefit.

The fail cascade that is Cirius (Circus) continues. Ooodles of stuff still broke and no patch today.


What are you producing? EW Drones? Hybrid components? Small rigs?
Try it on hulls - even for HAC's they are easily worth 250mln & more, not speaking about caps ...
George Gouillot
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2014-07-29 11:17:25 UTC
SJ Astralana wrote:
Teams make sense when you have a production chain that can leverage their advantage. The large industrialist will multiply the cost saving against sales that range into the 10s of billions, make a valuation, and price any smaller industrialist out of the bid. The teams that have been auctioned off so far are so underpriced it's laughable. This is of course temporary.

This change has tragically (honest opinion coming from a large industrialist) skewed the playing field against the entry level builder.


These can moves there lines to the systems the teams are active - being flexible saves much more than a POS now and costs much less ...
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