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If I were to reform FW, what would I do?
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Caoni Mar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2014-07-28 16:13:01 UTC
1) Get rid of missions. There are too many silently running them and milking off the efforts of people contributing to the active effort of taking systems. While the missions do contribute to the overall wealth of those that are part of FW, this wouldn't mean I want them all in the poor house which is why you then ...
2) Make plexes worth more loyalty points to compensate for mission removal. This will compensate for mission removal. Agents for TLF could be used to provide some sort of reward for turning in tags. Plex farming could become more of an issue but then you would have people trying to actively hunt them down. I remember the days of chasing down macroing farmers in 0.0. War Targets of the opposing side as well as pirate factions would do the same.
3) Change the large plex to have a gate that allows battlecruisers and lower. Add an addional plex (lets call it Expert) that works like the large does now but with more difficult rats and a small NPC fleet. Throw in a battleship or two, cruiser support and rats that will try to run you down, scramble and web you along with use whatever other ewar they have. Make these the challenge for groups.
4) Make defensive plexing worth more but not the full amount since the whole point of FW is to engage the opposing militia. The current LP reward calculation is terrible though and I think the equation could use some revisiting.
Shahai Shintaro
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2 - 2014-07-28 17:10:04 UTC
I would add a front line to faction war. Basically, FW plexes would only spawn in systems that neighbor a system owned by the opposing faction. This would remove plexing in back water systems and farming. Deep systems could also then be upgraded without worry that some farmer undoes it. To combat this, I would consider having missions possibly effect the upgrade level
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#3 - 2014-07-28 17:19:54 UTC
Don't forget about the suspect flag for anyone entering a plex to negate the advantages for neutrals not participating in FW.
Shahai Shintaro
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4 - 2014-07-28 17:31:05 UTC
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
Don't forget about the suspect flag for anyone entering a plex to negate the advantages for neutrals not participating in FW.


As much as I would like this, they have no advantage. They take the same penalty you do for firing first. If anything, you have the advantage for being set up inside.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#5 - 2014-07-28 17:33:35 UTC
Orbiting your own button is not a war so there should be no fare either.

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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#6 - 2014-07-28 17:40:50 UTC
Remove the station lock-out mechanics. This alone will allow people to spread out and set up across the map in smaller groups, encouraging small gang / solo combat and creating a FAR more dynamic warzone in general.

People who want to fight "bigger groups" will generally set up close to systems where other "big groups" live and/or chokepoints (as was the case before the FW changes).

How did you Veterans start?
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#7 - 2014-07-28 20:46:00 UTC
Shahai Shintaro wrote:
I would add a front line to faction war. Basically, FW plexes would only spawn in systems that neighbor a system owned by the opposing faction. This would remove plexing in back water systems and farming. Deep systems could also then be upgraded without worry that some farmer undoes it. To combat this, I would consider having missions possibly effect the upgrade level



Only systems adjacent to opposition systems would be available for plexing.

You could even make a system 1 jump farther available for plexing at a reduced rate. This system could move to 99% contested, but no vulnerable until the adjacent enemy system had fallen to your control.

It would have solved every problem they had with farmers without the strange changes from the last patch.

If CCP had sense, they would have done this from the start. Alas they do not.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#8 - 2014-07-29 00:26:05 UTC
Shahai Shintaro wrote:
I would add a front line to faction war. Basically, FW plexes would only spawn in systems that neighbor a system owned by the opposing faction. This would remove plexing in back water systems and farming. Deep systems could also then be upgraded without worry that some farmer undoes it. To combat this, I would consider having missions possibly effect the upgrade level


That sounds cool, but with less systems to plex you'll have hundreds of pilots spread over a few systems fighting over a small number of plexes, making plexing for isk nearly impossible, but running missions easier because more empty systems. That would just force people to run missions for isk instead, which means less pvp.

Holier than thou mission runners in stealth bombers are the biggest farmers in faction war, I'm not worried about a few dudes in stabbed frigs trying to pick off uncontested plexes here and there because I was that guy and I know you don't make anywhere near as much ISK as people make out, and it's definitely a lot less than mission runners. In fact mission runners make more ISK than any solo plexer.
May Arethusa
Junction Systems
#9 - 2014-07-29 03:42:02 UTC
Phaade wrote:
Shahai Shintaro wrote:
I would add a front line to faction war. Basically, FW plexes would only spawn in systems that neighbor a system owned by the opposing faction. This would remove plexing in back water systems and farming. Deep systems could also then be upgraded without worry that some farmer undoes it. To combat this, I would consider having missions possibly effect the upgrade level



Only systems adjacent to opposition systems would be available for plexing.

You could even make a system 1 jump farther available for plexing at a reduced rate. This system could move to 99% contested, but no vulnerable until the adjacent enemy system had fallen to your control.

It would have solved every problem they had with farmers without the strange changes from the last patch.

If CCP had sense, they would have done this from the start. Alas they do not.



No thanks. A blanket ban on plexing in most systems sounds exactly like the kind of heavy handed solution CCP might implement, but it really doesn't benefit anyone. You may stop farmers from plexing, but without the solo plexers defending their homes or slowly chipping away at a quiet back-end system you'd effectively kill off a large portion of solo PVP in FW Space. Plexing would become even more focused on blob vs blob combat as the number of potentially vulnerable systems dwindles. A front line isn't necessarily a bad idea, the system occupancy bonuses are largely pointless and the only real benefit to controlling systems right now is locking your enemy out of stations and limiting their choice of mission agents.

I'd start by revising the current upgrade mechanics:

- Better bonuses would be first on the list, though I realise this is a tricky one to get right. People complain enough about OGBs, imagine the maelstrom of nerd rage iHub-based ship bonuses would create. I'm not totally against the idea; so long as there was a way of negating the bonus (a shiny new deployable?), were considerably weaker than standard links, and didn't stack with their ship-based equivalent. The industry bonus isn't bad really, but I'd question how much use it'll see. Broker fees? Meh. Clone costs? Meh. Cheaper repairs? Maybe. It'd take a while to settle on something meaningful, but it needs doing. Shift the focus away from tier manipulation to actual occupancy bonuses.

- Each system level unlocks a pre-determined slot while the contestation level impacts effectiveness, simulating the effects of attrition upon the system infrastructure. System upgrading and degradation remains the same.

- Constellation bonuses. Your militia holds a constellation? Get a shiny level 6 upgrade that does cool stuff.

- Adjacency bonuses. Similar to the front line principle outlined above, but offering incentives rather than cockblocking the masses. Front line systems offer bonus LP! Surrounded on all sides by hostile systems? It should play some part in how effectively your system runs. Reduce the effectiveness of system upgrades as a result.

As far as plexing goes, I'm fairly happy with the system as it is. Just switch the damn beacons back already. Oh, and turn off stabs in plexes too.

I certainly wouldn't scrap missions. They're a valuable source of income for militias in lower tiers. Maybe increase the base payout and exempt them from the tier-based LP bonuses to prevent them from becoming the insane cash cow they are at tier 4-5. If farmers want to run missions, let them. I'd rather they were pottering around in a Bomber than plexing in stabbed frigates/destroyers.
Thorr VonAsgard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2014-07-29 09:53:12 UTC
Shahai Shintaro wrote:
I would add a front line to faction war. Basically, FW plexes would only spawn in systems that neighbor a system owned by the opposing faction. This would remove plexing in back water systems and farming. Deep systems could also then be upgraded without worry that some farmer undoes it. To combat this, I would consider having missions possibly effect the upgrade level



I love this idea.

A real front line.

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Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#11 - 2014-07-29 12:08:34 UTC
Disclaimer: I don't actually FW myself, even though I know people who do and thus have an introductory sort of familiarity. Take the following comments with whatever amount of salt is appropriate.

What if a mixture of the two suggestions here were to be considered?

A real front line with full and proper bonuses for plexing and capturing, while keeping bonuses (at a reduced rate, with the amount of reduction left to people better-versed in FW than I) for plexing other systems that aren't directly adjacent to enemy-controlled space?

Farmers would continue to farm, but they'd be encouraged to do it in a more useful place where they're also more visible - and thus vulnerable. The people who chip away slowly could continue to be rewarded for doing so, though I admit that it's not the prettiest solution to reduce the rewards these people get for (presumably) trying to take a strategic sort of approach to capturing enemy space.

Personally, I don't see station lockouts going anywhere since CCP decided that's how they were going to encourage people to defend their homes.
RavenTesio
Liandri Corporation
#12 - 2014-07-29 14:36:50 UTC
Caoni Mar wrote:
1) Get rid of missions. There are too many silently running them and milking off the efforts of people contributing to the active effort of taking systems. While the missions do contribute to the overall wealth of those that are part of FW, this wouldn't mean I want them all in the poor house which is why you then ...
2) Make plexes worth more loyalty points to compensate for mission removal. This will compensate for mission removal. Agents for TLF could be used to provide some sort of reward for turning in tags. Plex farming could become more of an issue but then you would have people trying to actively hunt them down. I remember the days of chasing down macroing farmers in 0.0. War Targets of the opposing side as well as pirate factions would do the same.
3) Change the large plex to have a gate that allows battlecruisers and lower. Add an addional plex (lets call it Expert) that works like the large does now but with more difficult rats and a small NPC fleet. Throw in a battleship or two, cruiser support and rats that will try to run you down, scramble and web you along with use whatever other ewar they have. Make these the challenge for groups.
4) Make defensive plexing worth more but not the full amount since the whole point of FW is to engage the opposing militia. The current LP reward calculation is terrible though and I think the equation could use some revisiting.


1 • Agreed
Missions right now are little more than LP ATMs, which sure were needed 3 years ago when they were the only way to earn LP but today it can be earned from Kills, Offensive and Defensive Complexes.

2 • No... sorry but to me CCP have made income be it ISK or LP something that is just far too easy to earn in recent years.
It has reduced the Risk of engaging in PVP to the point where, even casual complex running easily keeps most pilots in ships.

3 • Yes to returning gates to Large, no to an 'Expert' Complex

4 • Defensive Complex /should/ be worth 100% Offensive.
Look at my killboard, I've almost exclusively done defensive Complexes for the past month or two ... now part of that is because the Caldari have been far more on the defensive than offensive - but the point is I get just as many if not MORE fights doing Defensive Complexes than those doing Offensives.

So claiming that running Defensive Complexes reduces the PVP or is somehow /less/ important than Offensives is just complete and utter bullshit.

Doing Offensives already drops tags, if you don't pick them up then that's your problem but that provide a very clear fiscal advantage over doing Defensives.

---

When they were redesigning Faction Warfare one of the suggestions I was pushing was for "Frontline" Systems.
The idea wasn't to 'prevent' all Complex Running outside of the "Frontline", as honestly that would just hand the Gallente and Minmatar 100% Control as that plays in to their play style of simply descending upon a single system at a time.

If anyone was actually serious about removing "Farmers" there are a few things that /NEED/ to happen.

A • Each Complex should have a 30km Warp Disruption Bubble around the Facility

B • FW NPC Corporations should have 20% Tax (really all NPC Corporations should have that!)

C • Loyalty Points should be Taxable

D • Corporations should have Upkeep like Alliances, with a minimum of 5 Players to remain open

F • Warzone Control Bonus should be a smaller Scale:
100% - 120% - 135% - 145% - 150%

G • Make the I-HUB an Outpost Station for Faction Warfare


[quote]Personally, I don't see station lockouts going anywhere since CCP decided that's how they were going to encourage people to defend their homes. [quote]

Docking Rights /ARE/ a good thing, they do add consequence... but the problem is that CCP frankly feel this should be limited consequence only for those who live in Low-Sec Faction Warfare.

As seems to have been thrown in my face several times at Fan Fest during a Roundtable, that frankly as far as I'm concerned is mythical at best given it was never broadcast on Eve TV or uploaded to YouTube; so there is no way to verify what people are saying is true or actually what was said ... apparently CCP won't extend the Docking Rights to High-Sec because they feel it would remove "Content" making High-Sec too safe.

Honestly if that is their thinking behind that, frankly the rest of the design for Faction Warfare makes a lot more sense because they clearly couldn't give a **** if it is an enjoyable and rewarding well designed gameplay mechanic - all they want to do is provide a Mini-Sovereignty system that will always favour those with more ISK and more Friends.

To be perfectly honest, outside of my own personal RP frankly from a mechanical aspect... FW is little more than legitimised piracy with bribes to encourage players to PVP before they move on to Null-Sec, which seriously not everyone in Eve sees Null-Sec as the ultimate "End Game"

This isn't a linear progression game like World of Warcraft, and catering for those kinds of players is just disenfranchising and pushing older players away who enjoy Eve for what it is ... a Sandbox - where each experience is unique allowing you to enjoy the game in your own way.

CCP need to stop trying to herd us towards areas of the game we don't give a **** about and work on gameplay and mechanics that provide us with greater variety so that we can find those niche places where we can be happy and enjoy the game how we want to ... not how they think we should.

FW should be about making us feel like we are involved in an actual war between the Empires, and honestly I've not felt that way ever since FW Changed 3 year ago.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#13 - 2014-07-29 14:41:59 UTC
Shahai Shintaro wrote:
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
Don't forget about the suspect flag for anyone entering a plex to negate the advantages for neutrals not participating in FW.


As much as I would like this, they have no advantage. They take the same penalty you do for firing first. If anything, you have the advantage for being set up inside.


Think about it...if you have a criminal or some random dude trespassing on a military base while being warned prior to that that he'll be shot on site for trespassing...then trespasses and gets shot on site, how is that the military's fault? If I'm holding or capturing a complex for my faction as an enlisted military member, shouldn't interlopers get the same treatment? I don't want to be penalized by concord for doing my damn job.