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Compressing ore more profitable?
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Jump Buoy
Dead Space Investments.
#1 - 2014-07-25 00:58:09 UTC
With the new changes to refining will it be more profitable to compress ore to sell rather than refine?
Brock Nelson
#2 - 2014-07-25 01:26:32 UTC
I don't know, you tell me. Look at the market, figure out how much you'll get from selling refined mineral vs compressing ores.

Signature removed, CCP Phantom
Jump Buoy
Dead Space Investments.
#3 - 2014-07-25 01:36:41 UTC
Brock Nelson wrote:
I don't know, you tell me. Look at the market, figure out how much you'll get from selling refined mineral vs compressing ores.

The market has not had time to adjust I am wondering if it will become more profitable.
Adunh Slavy
#4 - 2014-07-25 03:05:22 UTC
Jump Buoy wrote:
Brock Nelson wrote:
I don't know, you tell me. Look at the market, figure out how much you'll get from selling refined mineral vs compressing ores.

The market has not had time to adjust I am wondering if it will become more profitable.



Depends on how null sec responds to all of this. Not much need to use compressed ore in high sec. Will null sec production increase beyond Null's improved mining and refining ability? Time will tell.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2014-07-25 09:26:00 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Jump Buoy wrote:
Brock Nelson wrote:
I don't know, you tell me. Look at the market, figure out how much you'll get from selling refined mineral vs compressing ores.

The market has not had time to adjust I am wondering if it will become more profitable.



Depends on how null sec responds to all of this. Not much need to use compressed ore in high sec. Will null sec production increase beyond Null's improved mining and refining ability? Time will tell.


The vast majority of lowend minerals are bought by (super)cap builders.

They want it compressed.

Besides, compression costs roughly nothing (one hour of fuel blocks per one session of compressing), compress, try to sell and if you see raw mins somehow selling for more, you can always refine the compressed ore for sale as minerals.
X ATM092
The Hatchery
SL0W CHILDREN AT PLAY
#6 - 2014-07-25 18:26:03 UTC
excluding any short term variance compressed ore will always be worth more, it has the same innate value and massively greater utility
Perkin Warbeck
Higher Than Everest
#7 - 2014-07-25 21:22:33 UTC
Jump Buoy wrote:
With the new changes to refining will it be more profitable to compress ore to sell rather than refine?


Null sec builders will be seeking replacement for compression modules such as 425mm rails. It doesn't necessarily follow that they will want compressed ore. Instead I would think they will buy ore and compress it themselves. It depends if the price of compressed ore from the market is cheaper than compressing ore in a compression array.
X ATM092
The Hatchery
SL0W CHILDREN AT PLAY
#8 - 2014-07-26 01:24:52 UTC
Perkin Warbeck wrote:
Jump Buoy wrote:
With the new changes to refining will it be more profitable to compress ore to sell rather than refine?


Null sec builders will be seeking replacement for compression modules such as 425mm rails. It doesn't necessarily follow that they will want compressed ore. Instead I would think they will buy ore and compress it themselves. It depends if the price of compressed ore from the market is cheaper than compressing ore in a compression array.

This doesn't make sense. Where exactly would one buy a supercarriers worth of uncompressed ore in order to compress it? Ore is too big to practically move, you either compress it to comp ore or you refine it on the spot to minerals, both of which are smaller than the ore.
Perkin Warbeck
Higher Than Everest
#9 - 2014-07-26 08:35:07 UTC
X ATM092 wrote:
Perkin Warbeck wrote:
Jump Buoy wrote:
With the new changes to refining will it be more profitable to compress ore to sell rather than refine?


Null sec builders will be seeking replacement for compression modules such as 425mm rails. It doesn't necessarily follow that they will want compressed ore. Instead I would think they will buy ore and compress it themselves. It depends if the price of compressed ore from the market is cheaper than compressing ore in a compression array.

This doesn't make sense. Where exactly would one buy a supercarriers worth of uncompressed ore in order to compress it? Ore is too big to practically move, you either compress it to comp ore or you refine it on the spot to minerals, both of which are smaller than the ore.


I read the question as whether to refine ore into minerals, compress the ore into compressed ore or just sell the ore. As compression arrays can be anchored in high sec it is entirely feasible that a cap builder will be looking to see whichever of the last two mechanisms will give them the greater profit margin. Buy ore locally and compress yourself or buy compressed ore locally (or at a trade hub).
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2014-07-26 09:16:37 UTC
Perkin Warbeck wrote:
Jump Buoy wrote:
With the new changes to refining will it be more profitable to compress ore to sell rather than refine?


Null sec builders will be seeking replacement for compression modules such as 425mm rails. It doesn't necessarily follow that they will want compressed ore. Instead I would think they will buy ore and compress it themselves. It depends if the price of compressed ore from the market is cheaper than compressing ore in a compression array.


No. Hauling all that uncompressed raw ore to a POS for compressing requires :effort: (and a POS near location of the Ore)

Price difference has to be major before a supercap builder will do it himself.

I fully expect Compressed to always be more expensive than raw ore. Also allows a "mini profession" of sorts - someone freightering full loads of ore from market to POS, compress, resell. No costs beyond sales taxes and trivial fuel costs at POS + time (which so many highsec dwellers value at 0).
X ATM092
The Hatchery
SL0W CHILDREN AT PLAY
#11 - 2014-07-26 17:14:20 UTC
If we assume ore mining is dispersed around all of eve, that super builders aren't especially into doing a shitton of freighter work, that random highsec mining corps don't typically mine and hoard tens of billions of ore at a time and that people are not inclined to haul unprocessed ore to Jita then the problem remains "who the **** do you buy a titan worth of ore off of?". If you buy it off of 30 different groups in 30 different areas then you'll be moving your POS around to compress it in each area.

There is not a central market system for raw ore because raw ore is a ***** to move. There is not a local market system for enough raw ore because super manufacturers need a shitton of it.
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2014-07-27 14:06:14 UTC
X ATM092 wrote:
If we assume ore mining is dispersed around all of eve, that super builders aren't especially into doing a shitton of freighter work, that random highsec mining corps don't typically mine and hoard tens of billions of ore at a time and that people are not inclined to haul unprocessed ore to Jita then the problem remains "who the **** do you buy a titan worth of ore off of?". If you buy it off of 30 different groups in 30 different areas then you'll be moving your POS around to compress it in each area.

There is not a central market system for raw ore because raw ore is a ***** to move. There is not a local market system for enough raw ore because super manufacturers need a shitton of it.


The market will adjust.

Compressed ore will be so much more valuable that there will be raw ore buy orders all over the EVE by pilots who compress & haul it to Jita for supercap builders to buy and JF out to null.

Also any large mining op will probably compress it themselves just for easing the delivery to market. All you need is a small POS and a compression module somewhere near your mining op. Trivial.
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#13 - 2014-07-27 14:13:14 UTC
X ATM092 wrote:
excluding any short term variance compressed ore will always be worth more, it has the same innate value and massively greater utility


True, but you need to move the ore to a POS before you can compress it, and AFAIK the compressing facility has a very limited volume. And moving uncompressed ore is difficult as it's so bulky.

Now, if it becomes possible to compress ore in a station... Party time, man!!!
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2014-07-27 15:00:48 UTC
Salpad wrote:
X ATM092 wrote:
excluding any short term variance compressed ore will always be worth more, it has the same innate value and massively greater utility


True, but you need to move the ore to a POS before you can compress it, and AFAIK the compressing facility has a very limited volume. And moving uncompressed ore is difficult as it's so bulky.

Now, if it becomes possible to compress ore in a station... Party time, man!!!


No, the compressing facility can take something like 20 freighter loads and its literally "click, stuff goes small, room for another 20 freighter loads".

Hauling is the problem, not the compression facility.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#15 - 2014-07-27 18:31:18 UTC
Saw some compressed ice on the market. It was priced like compressed ore, i.e. x100. The trick being that compressed ice is x1.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#16 - 2014-07-28 00:19:15 UTC
Salpad wrote:
X ATM092 wrote:
excluding any short term variance compressed ore will always be worth more, it has the same innate value and massively greater utility


True, but you need to move the ore to a POS before you can compress it, and AFAIK the compressing facility has a very limited volume. And moving uncompressed ore is difficult as it's so bulky.

Now, if it becomes possible to compress ore in a station... Party time, man!!!


I did 3 freighter loads when compression came out, and then I subsequently converted those to compression contracts "in station", which is effectively that thing for a miner that doesn't have a compressor.

Getting them to buy the compression contracts set up for them on the other hand remains completely impossible.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#17 - 2014-07-28 05:10:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Looking at Jita right now:

Tritanium: 5.33 | 5.19
That gives a Max Refine Dense Veldspar at POS [75.25232% = 343 units of 457 extracted]: 18.28 | 17.80

Compressed Dense Veldspar should therefore be x100: 1828.19 | 1780.17

Actual Jita prices:
Dense Veldspar: 18.42 | 15.05
Compressed Dense Veldspar: 2500.00 | 1912.50

So the raw ore is selling right at the mineral value, with a low buy-order price, and the compressed ore is selling for +671.81 | +132.22 over the mineral value. Even if you sell compressed to buy order you are better off in this case.

At those prices, one might even be able to buy ore, compress it and sell it at a profit.

Other ores / markets will vary. Do your own math before reprocessing / selling!
[Don't forget to consider your POS fuel costs.]
Jaro Essa
Dahkur Forge
#18 - 2014-07-28 06:02:16 UTC
Salpad wrote:
...you need to move the ore to a POS before you can compress it, and AFAIK the compressing facility has a very limited volume. And moving uncompressed ore is difficult as it's so bulky.

The Compression Array is enormous. It has 20 million cubic metre capacity, and compression is instantaneous.

Moving ore to a POS might have been a problem pre-Crius, but now it's possible to erect a POS anywhere in highsec. Drop a POS in the system you mine in, and compress there. Hauling the compressed ore to a hub is then trivial.
Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#19 - 2014-07-28 08:57:47 UTC
Is the investment in a pos for a small corp going to be worth it though?

Until the prices settle down i'm certainly not going to invest in one, simply because I have no idea if, or how long it's going to take to recoup the isk spent on one.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#20 - 2014-07-28 17:49:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
I've spent 200m on research fees on about 4 BPO, and I've saved at least 20m of NPC tax so far, and I'm not in full-research mode yet.

Whether a POS is useful to you, is up to you to decide: do the math.

I have a large to myself, mostly for research, a corp-mate is using my second large mostly for manufacturing, and my third large is offline. I'm willing to pay for large towers because I'm also paranoid.
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