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Crius Feedback

First post First post
Author
Drahcir Nasom
Independent Manufacturers
#181 - 2014-07-22 22:23:13 UTC
WTF, if I'm reading the new BP details screen correctly, the build time on my Astarte BPO has changed from 1d10h8m to 3d11h20m, that's an increase in production time of 144% from 2048 minutes to 5000 minutes. The time to make a single copy run is now 2d18h40m, and the maximum number of runs for a BPC is 1
Maria Bellafemme
Zacharia Explorations Group
#182 - 2014-07-22 22:31:40 UTC
Enjoying Crius for the most part. Good job CCP!

Having said that, there is some room for improvements, especially with the system/job cost and team bidding.

System Index & Job Cost
+A breakdown of the cost would be better than an explanation. I thought my system was the most expensive of them all, because the red bar was sooooooo big. Then I saw the map with the manufacturing cost index selected and saw that this system is just average with most.

Bidding for Teams
+I needs a "My Bids" window. I NEEEEEDS one. The eve client/server already knows which teams I've bid on, so why not show it to me to see how we are doing?

+I needs a window showing me all the bids for certain systems. How can I throw my money towards a team another player started bidding on if I don't know our system is in the running? (Of course, that could also backfire on us, but there are risks with everything, right?)

-Maria
Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#183 - 2014-07-22 22:32:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Ray Kyonhe
I just can't believe my eyes.. Please tell me this is some kind of error and will be fixed soon. Before Crius I've invented several capital t2 rig BPCs. I used a decryptor (Occult Proccess) and managed to get them to very nice ME levels. It was ME -1. Now all this BPCs are at ME-9%, and quantity of materials needed to manufacture them is HORRIBLE. It is 20-30% greater than what I had on them right before Crius (IPH tool still shows my old resource requirements, so I'm shure about it). So producing them is no option now, as it would be more profitable to just sell blue salvage needed on the market. So, you basically ruined all my hard job of creating these, they now only worth to trash them, no one will buy this junk.

I also have a bunch of t2 Small Nozzle Joints BPCs. Before Crius they required exactly of 1 unit of 3 types of t2 salvage to produce - and to achieve that I used quite expensive decryptors I bought from markets. Now all of them require 2 units of salvage. Is it how transition should work? Screw it then!

Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link

Ydnari
Estrale Frontiers
#184 - 2014-07-22 22:34:00 UTC
Ray Kyonhe wrote:
I just can't believe my eyes.. Please tell me this is some kind of error and will be fixed soon. Before Crius I've invented several capital t2 rig BPC. I did usind a decryptor (Occult proccess) and managed to get them to very nice ME levels. It was ME -1. Now all this BPCs are at ME-9%, and quantity of materials needed to manufacture them is HORRIBLE. It is 20-30% greater than before Crius. So producing them is no option now, as it would be more profitable to just sell blue salvage needed on the market. So, you basically ruined all my hard job of creating these, they now only worth to trash them, no one will buy this junk.
I also have a bund of t2 Small Nozzle Joints BPCs. Before Crius they required exactly of 1 unit of 3 types of t2 salvage to produce - and to achieve that I used quite expensive decryptors I bought from markets. Now all of them require 2 units of salvage. Is it how transition should work? Screw it then!


-9% is almost maximum, best is -10%.

For some reason CCP decided that whilst they were going to keep ME/TE on one side of zero (yay), they inexplicably chose to make all of the numbers negative. Roll

--

Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#185 - 2014-07-22 22:35:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Ray Kyonhe
Ydnari wrote:

For some reason CCP decided that whilst they were going to keep ME/TE on one side of zero (yay), they inexplicably chose to make all of the numbers negative. Roll

All my nozzle joints t2 BPCs now have ME-8%, and they require 2 units of each of 3 kinds of salvage to produce. Before Crius they required only 1 unit of each kind.

Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link

Steijn
Quay Industries
#186 - 2014-07-22 22:37:54 UTC
Ray Kyonhe wrote:
Ydnari wrote:
[quote=Ray Kyonhe]
For some reason CCP decided that whilst they were going to keep ME/TE on one side of zero (yay), they inexplicably chose to make all of the numbers negative. Roll

All my nozzle joints t2 BPCs now have ME-8%, and they require 2 units of each of 3 kinds of salvage to produce. Before Crius they required only 1 unit of each kind.


loads of BPOs/BPCs now need more materials.
Maria Bellafemme
Zacharia Explorations Group
#187 - 2014-07-22 22:41:53 UTC
Ray Kyonhe wrote:
I just can't believe my eyes.. Please tell me this is some kind of error and will be fixed soon. Before Crius I've invented several capital t2 rig BPCs. I used a decryptor (Occult Proccess) and managed to get them to very nice ME levels. It was ME -1. Now all this BPCs are at ME-9%, and quantity of materials needed to manufacture them is HORRIBLE. It is 20-30% greater than what I have on them right before Crius (IPH tools still shows my old resource requirements, so I'm shure about it). So producing them is no option now, as it would be more profitable to just sell blue salvage needed on the market. So, you basically ruined all my hard job of creating these, they now only worth to trash them, no one will buy this junk.

I also have a bund of t2 Small Nozzle Joints BPCs. Before Crius they required exactly of 1 unit of 3 types of t2 salvage to produce - and to achieve that I used quite expensive decryptors I bought from markets. Now all of them require 2 units of salvage. Is it how transition should work? Screw it then!


It's not as bad as it looks, Ray!

ME levels are now expressed in how much less the BPO/BPC requires. ME -9% means "subtract 9% from the original BP material costs."

As for the increased material costs, I think all t2 BPs have new, higher material costs (invention no longer results in BPCs with material costs less efficient than an un researched BPO.) this includes owners of T2 BPOs

-Maria
Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#188 - 2014-07-22 22:55:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Ray Kyonhe
Maria Bellafemme wrote:

As for the increased material costs, I think all t2 BPs have new, higher material costs (invention no longer results in BPCs with material costs less efficient than an un researched BPO.) this includes owners of T2 BPOs

Correct me if I've got you wrong. Do you imply that increase in material cost was added just to counterbalance change in ME calculations, so resulting material cost after-Crius would remain the same? Than it's not the case - I clearly see that the same BPC that requred 78 Intact armor plates to produce just before the patch (all my skills already included in calcualtions) now require 90. Ninty! If it's not for some kind of bug in how values are displayed, then those BPCs are of no use, at least for long times to come, because I'm sure others created a tons of those rigs beforehand and will sell them under old price, exactly like in that old incident with t2 ships and extra materials.

Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link

Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#189 - 2014-07-22 23:02:49 UTC
Ray Kyonhe wrote:
Maria Bellafemme wrote:

As for the increased material costs, I think all t2 BPs have new, higher material costs (invention no longer results in BPCs with material costs less efficient than an un researched BPO.) this includes owners of T2 BPOs

Correct me if I've got you wrong. Do you imply that increase in material cost was added just to counterbalance change in ME calculations, so resulting material cost after-Crius would remain the same? Than it's not the case - I clearly see that the same BPC that requred 78 Intact armor plates to produce just before the patch (all my skills already included in calcualtions) now require 90. Ninty! If it's not for some kind of bug in how values are displayed, then those BPCs are of no use, at least for long times to come, because I'm sure others created a tons of those rigs beforehand and will sell them under old price, exactly like in that old incident with t2 ships and extra materials.

i believe show info on a bpo does not take its ME into account anymore (and fixing that might save some devs a lot of grief)
Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#190 - 2014-07-22 23:10:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Ray Kyonhe
Retar Aveymone wrote:

i believe show info on a bpo does not take its ME into account anymore (and fixing that might save some devs a lot of grief)

I hope it really is. But, even if it would take it into account, it still -9%, so instead of 90 plates I would have got ~82 plates. Still not so close to 78 which before-Crius BPC had.

Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link

KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#191 - 2014-07-22 23:12:36 UTC
Everyone should consider sitting on their BP's for a few days, or maybe even a couple of weeks, until this ****** mess gets straightened out. If nothing else some demand build would help offset the outrageous tax and fee policies/mechanics.
Meytal
Doomheim
#192 - 2014-07-22 23:34:02 UTC
I like how the math was simplified with the blueprint change of eliminating waste. It sucks that build costs aren't the exact same as they were, but it's very fair: everyone is hit by it and the market will adjust over time. Standardization of the blueprint data is also a welcomed change.

Unfortunately, there are some complaints to be had. Please keep in mind these observations, comments, and complaints are from the point of view of POS-based industry facilities in wormhole space.

1) Common complaint: industry window is huge. I have plenty of screen real-estate, but not everyone does. Re-design the interface based on the minimum spec screen resolution. Allow drag-n-drop for blueprints as well.

2) Related, sometimes you just want to check jobs, or look at teams, etc. You don't need the full Industry interface for this. Default the window to a smaller size unless you pick a blueprint.

3) The blueprint list sub-window is next to useless. Split it into two panes with a heirarchical navigation pane on the left, similar to the inventory or file browsers on any GUI operating system these days.

4) Because the blueprint list window is next to useless, I right-click "Use Blueprint" from the blueprint itself that I want to work with. This is actually the same method I've always used, so thank you for keeping this behaviour. However:

a) Regardless of the location of the blueprint, both the input and output location for me in a POS default to Hangar 1. They should default to the location of the blueprint itself, which was previous behaviour and much more intuitive.

b) When I select a particular job type I wish to perform on the blueprint, the list of facilities available should change, limited to just that type. For example, I have a T2 BPC and I want to manufacture that item; the only job type available is Manufacture, yet the facilities list shows Invention facilities, ME/TE research facilities, etc. If I wanted to make copies of a BPO, I shouldn't see Manufacturing facilities in the list of facilities.

c) For manufacturing in POS facilities where you have specific POS modules that manufacture specific items, only list the relevant facility type that is capable of manufacturing that item. For example, if I want to manufacture from a Rig blueprint, list only Equipment-type assembly arrays, not Component arrays, or Drone arrays, etc.

5) Installing jobs at POS facilities takes the job installation cost from your current corp wallet division. Allow us to select, per installation, whether the fees come from installer's personal wallet or from the corp wallet and from a specific corp wallet division. This is actually a huge impact to medium-to-large size corps who allow members to run personal industry jobs.

6) "Show Info" on blueprints should include the ME, TE, and Runs Remaining in the list, in addition to the pretty little graphics near the blueprint image.

7) The fancy diamond representing materials and hourglass representing time are cute, but we're not morons. Give us an option to display TE and PE instead of the Diamond and Hourglass, or alternatively drop the symbols and assume we are literate.

8) When hovering the house over a blueprint in storage, include the ME, TE, and Runs Remaining in the tooltip popup (text please, not the symbols, as mentioned in previous item).

9) In addition to lack of feedback in the POS-based refining arrays until after you initiate the refining job, they require you to be within 3000m of the structure to actually refine products.

10) I wish to echo the request for system index somewhere in numerical form in the Industry interface.


PS: I still can't make a post about this patch without expressing how silly it is for Sov Nullsec and W-space to pay ISK to some ethereal entity for job installations, and request this be eliminated in those two regions of space.
Jamaica Merchant
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#193 - 2014-07-22 23:36:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Jamaica Merchant
Horrible, horrible changes ... (aside from the UI, which is nice).

FIrst:

Pre Crius, using 8 copy slots and 8 Hammerhead I BPOs in labs at a POS, one can make 70 max runs copies per 24h
And conveniently run 70 invention jobs for 7h.
Pipelining copy/invention on two characters, gives a steady throughput of 70 invention jobs per 24h with 24h latency.

Post Cruis: 50min to produce the input for 70 invention jobs, fine.

However, these invention jobs now take 7 * 2h13m, which is 15h30m.

So, in order to get the same throughput of 70 jobs per 24h, pre Cruis I have to be around the computer for 7 hrs,
post Cruis I have to be around the computer for more than 15 hours.

Yeah, the pre-Cruis throughput is still achievable ... on paper and without considering the human factor ...
you know, those factors one takes into account from actually playing the game, which does not seem the case with certain
developers.

The big difference, of course, is that copying can be batched (i.e. to set both number of copies and number of runs),
whereas the invention cannot.
This allowed one to achieve big copying throughput despite the greater copy time.

Second:

+ME decryptors are now severely nerfed and worthless (even the ones, which were useful before) because, of course,
the 10% savings from one level up in negative ME are now 1% savings on positive ME.

Third:

The build cost across T2 modules is significantly increased (by tens of percents), because the T2 components usage
is affected by the ME. In many cases, the -2% or whatever efficiency is meaningless, because of the small amount
of the required component and the ceiling on the usage. Mind you, T2 BPC have only 10 runs, which does
not allow the savings to show up at all.

That's it for now ...

Horrbile, horrible changes ...
DeODokktor
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
#194 - 2014-07-22 23:56:33 UTC  |  Edited by: DeODokktor
Meytal wrote:
I like how the math was simplified with the blueprint change of eliminating waste. It sucks that build costs aren't the exact same as they were, but it's very fair: everyone is hit by it and the market will adjust over time. Standardization of the blueprint data is also a welcomed change.


"Simplified"?... "Eliminated"?
They added the Waste to the Base, and now you get Savings!...
Pizza Hut has a speshul, 2 pizzas for $10.. So 2 of them cost you $10.
next week that speshul is gone, But if you buy 2 pizzas (worth 7.50 each) you get 1/3 off.. You pay $10
Your getting roughly the same thing (output wise) that you were getting before...
Now, for those who say "but outputs are different"... Yea they are.
In the OLD days you had Round(Base*Waste), Now you have Roundup(Base*Savings).. So the "Change" there wasn't the standard, but simply a "Roundup" command now instead of a "Round" command.
For reference, they have dropped it in game in the past then removed it stating it was a mistake (a lot of people never noticed)

Meytal wrote:

PS: I still can't make a post about this patch without expressing how silly it is for Sov Nullsec and W-space to pay ISK to some ethereal entity for job installations, and request this be eliminated in those two regions of space.


Logically that seems backwards.
in eve W-Space and Nullsec are there due to the lack of law. It would be like setting a TV factory up in the middle of a warzone, your saying that should receive a full discount?... I say W-Space and Nullsec (in terms of logic at least) should cost more. Now, CCP could fill this gap with say, Slaves. And those could only be used in specific regions. Output goes down, but cost go down a LOT more. The problem is that the base price for this stuff is just way too high. I said it in other threads and I'll say it again.

I don't think anyone understands how much of a ISK Sink CCP is making here.
Jamaica Merchant
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#195 - 2014-07-23 00:03:13 UTC
And another general note ...

As it is well known, if running a big number of identical, independent jobs (be it copy, invention or manufacturing) takes a lot of time,
the solution is to run them in parallel.

Once one exceeds the ability of the single character to run jobs in parallel (Advanced Laboratory Operation V, Advanced Mass Production V), the only option left is to employ multiple characters.

Of copying, invention and manufacturing, the most skill intensive one is invention.

In that sense, creating a bottleneck in invention time is the ABSOLUTELY WORST possible solution from
the players' point of view, because it requires them to invest a drastically bigger amount of skill
points in order to achieve the same amount scalability, compared to solving the bottleneck in copying or manufacturing.
Regan Rotineque
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#196 - 2014-07-23 00:34:14 UTC
Why did you change the max number of runs on Fuel Blocks ?

It was 300 before now it is 200

In addition to now taking a MASSIVE amount of time more than before to make them ...i have to make even more copies to produce the actual blocks.

Some of these changes are good

Compression and the basic refining information

But there are so many things that are to not like ..... gone is the statement "we dont want any of your prints to be worse than before the changes" a complete and utter lie CCP - I can tell you right now after going through my BPC kits and other items most if not all are worse - MUCH worse.

Very disappointed with this release CCP

Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#197 - 2014-07-23 00:52:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Ray Kyonhe
DeODokktor wrote:

They added the Waste to the Base, and now you get Savings!...
Pizza Hut has a speshul, 2 pizzas for $10.. So 2 of them cost you $10.
next week that speshul is gone, But if you buy 2 pizzas (worth 7.50 each) you get 1/3 off.. You pay $10
Your getting roughly the same thing (output wise) that you were getting before...
Now, for those who say "but outputs are different"... Yea they are.
In the OLD days you had Round(Base*Waste), Now you have Roundup(Base*Savings).. So the "Change" there wasn't the standard, but simply a "Roundup" command now instead of a "Round" command.

Which kind of rounding up will transform the number of Intact Armor Plates required for production from 78 to 90? I still hope desperately this is some kind of display bug and at least ME level wasn't being factored into those numbers atm.

Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link

Noriko Mai
#198 - 2014-07-23 00:54:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Noriko Mai
I don't understand the stupid cost system at all...
Full bar = 2.5M ISK (System 1)
Full bar = 1.2M ISK (System 2)
Wat? I have to click through all the stations (which have all identical full bars for cost/workload) to see which one has the lowest cost? Yeeessss, eehrm noooooo. What? What is this even good for? Why can't you just adjust the tax?

Why should someone pay taxes in his/her own POS/Station? Or in a WH or 0.0?

And why are most of the estimated prices broken? May this be the cause for the crazy high costs?

And please fix the stupid input field for bidding (it's the same for bounties). 2014 and you are unable to code a input field with pre-defined decimal separators. X

"Meh.." - Albert Einstein

Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#199 - 2014-07-23 01:13:39 UTC
Noriko Mai wrote:
I don't understand the stupid cost system at all...
Full bar = 2.5M ISK (System 1)
Full bar = 1.2M ISK (System 2)
Wat? I have to click through all the stations (which have all identical full bars for cost/workload) to see which one has the lowest cost? Yeeessss, eehrm noooooo. What? What is this even good for? Why can't you just adjust the tax?

Why should someone pay taxes in his/her own POS?

And why are most of the estimated prices broken? May this be the cause for the crazy high costs?

And please fix the stupid input field for bidding (it's the same for bounties). 2014 and you are unable to code a input field with pre-defined decimal separators. X

the full bar is set way too low, you will have to use external tools
Noriko Mai
#200 - 2014-07-23 01:16:09 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Noriko Mai wrote:
I don't understand the stupid cost system at all...
Full bar = 2.5M ISK (System 1)
Full bar = 1.2M ISK (System 2)
Wat? I have to click through all the stations (which have all identical full bars for cost/workload) to see which one has the lowest cost? Yeeessss, eehrm noooooo. What? What is this even good for? Why can't you just adjust the tax?

Why should someone pay taxes in his/her own POS?

And why are most of the estimated prices broken? May this be the cause for the crazy high costs?

And please fix the stupid input field for bidding (it's the same for bounties). 2014 and you are unable to code a input field with pre-defined decimal separators. X

the full bar is set way too low, you will have to use external tools

I really don't know what to answer... Sad You are right, but it's wrong Sad

"Meh.." - Albert Einstein