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Material Efficiency
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Festers Uncle
Shortbus Hauling
#1 - 2014-07-22 17:46:50 UTC
How do you tell the material Efficiency on a Blue Print now. I have looked all over and am confused. Is it not by number anymore and just does 1% each time? if so did I lose all my research on the BP now?
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#2 - 2014-07-22 18:05:11 UTC
ME is 10 levels now. PE is 20 levels.

Unresearched: ME 0% / PE 0%
Fully Researched: ME 10% / PE 20%

You didn't lose any research.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#3 - 2014-07-22 18:06:57 UTC
No, your existing research was converted to the new system as has been discussed many, many times. It's in the patch notes. Relevant bit is this:


  • For ME, ME0 blueprints become ME0%
  • ME1 becomes ME5%
  • ME2 becomes ME7%
  • ME3 and ME4 become ME8%
  • ME5 through ME9 become ME9%
  • ME10 and above becomes ME10%
  • For TE, PE0 becomes TE0%
  • PE1 becomes TE10%
  • PE2 becomes TE14%
  • PE3 and PE4 become TE16%
  • PE5 through PE9 become TE18%
  • PE10 and above become TE20%
Festers Uncle
Shortbus Hauling
#4 - 2014-07-22 18:08:53 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
ME is 10 levels now. PE is 20 levels.

Unresearched: ME 0% / PE 0%
Fully Researched: ME 10% / PE 20%

You didn't lose any research.


I have been reading on this and this is where I am confused. I just tried building off a BPO that I had a specific level that is now 10%. The cost of manufacturing the item has increase quite a bit since it I capital part for a carrier. Does this mean all the time and skills I used into researching an BPO has been wasted and that this industry alt is basically useless now that 10% material efficiency is now for everyone and no longer skill based? if so, does this mean that I have months of game time that I paid for in training that is a complete waste???
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#5 - 2014-07-22 18:12:47 UTC
Festers Uncle wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
ME is 10 levels now. PE is 20 levels.

Unresearched: ME 0% / PE 0%
Fully Researched: ME 10% / PE 20%

You didn't lose any research.


I have been reading on this and this is where I am confused. I just tried building off a BPO that I had a specific level that is now 10%. The cost of manufacturing the item has increase quite a bit since it I capital part for a carrier. Does this mean all the time and skills I used into researching an BPO has been wasted and that this industry alt is basically useless now that 10% material efficiency is now for everyone and no longer skill based? if so, does this mean that I have months of game time that I paid for in training that is a complete waste???


If you choose to view it that way, sure. But remember: everyone has the same drawbacks you do. Everyone's cost structure is the same. If you think that long-term this will lead to higher prices for your goods then it ends up being (at least) a wash. If you decide that it's not worth waiting out the time for the investment to pay off and/or figuring out how to make minor details in the new system work for you, then it may well be "wasted" time.

Same things happen in ship training with rebalances all the time. It happens.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#6 - 2014-07-22 18:13:05 UTC
Festers Uncle wrote:
I have been reading on this and this is where I am confused. I just tried building off a BPO that I had a specific level that is now 10%. The cost of manufacturing the item has increase quite a bit since it I capital part for a carrier. Does this mean all the time and skills I used into researching an BPO has been wasted and that this industry alt is basically useless now that 10% material efficiency is now for everyone and no longer skill based? if so, does this mean that I have months of game time that I paid for in training that is a complete waste???

Not if you pass the increased costs on to your customers, like any sane industrialist.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2014-07-22 18:19:34 UTC
Yo industry gurus, I have a couple of questions on ME too:

1) are the materials on 'show info' of each bpo the amounts you'd need with ME0 (0%)? and researching ME will progressively reduce those amounts up to 90%, or -10% at ME10?

2) i had several t1 rig bpos with ME0 because of the old rounding system. with the new rounding system, researching ME will give me a cost reduction, correct? if, say, I produce in batches of 100 or so

Thanks in advance! Happy Crius to everybody.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Festers Uncle
Shortbus Hauling
#8 - 2014-07-22 18:21:16 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:


Same things happen in ship training with rebalances all the time. It happens.



No you still get the bonuses for the skills for the ships and the ability to fly these ships. changing this that 6 to 9 months of time on training which costs real life money, the reason pay for this account is to train, is a loss of money and time. I wasted all this time on training and research that I can not get a brand new trial account toon to build for me....
Festers Uncle
Shortbus Hauling
#9 - 2014-07-22 18:26:47 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
No, your existing research was converted to the new system as has been discussed many, many times. It's in the patch notes. Relevant bit is this:


  • For ME, ME0 blueprints become ME0%
  • ME1 becomes ME5%
  • ME2 becomes ME7%
  • ME3 and ME4 become ME8%
  • ME5 through ME9 become ME9%
  • ME10 and above becomes ME10%
  • For TE, PE0 becomes TE0%
  • PE1 becomes TE10%
  • PE2 becomes TE14%
  • PE3 and PE4 become TE16%
  • PE5 through PE9 become TE18%
  • PE10 and above become TE20%



sure ME 10 is now ME 10%.... but what about times such as drones that took ME 1200 to get a perfect no waste and took 6 months to research. so I could have just spent 1 hour of research yesterday to get it to ME 10 and now have the perfect ME 10% instead of 6 months. OH JOY

Is this CCP's way of making money for themselves by forcing people to buy plexes for cash to sell in game for isk because of the INCREASED prices
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#10 - 2014-07-22 18:29:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Yo industry gurus, I have a couple of questions on ME too:

1) are the materials on 'show info' of each bpo the amounts you'd need with ME0 (0%)? and researching ME will progressively reduce those amounts up to 90%, or -10% at ME10?

Can't check at the moment, but last time I looked on SiSi, BPO showed base amounts not actual. You had to look at it in the industry window for actual amount.

Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
2) i had several t1 rig bpos with ME0 because of the old rounding system. with the new rounding system, researching ME will give me a cost reduction, correct? if, say, I produce in batches of 100 or so

Pre-Crius waste at ME 0: 10%
Post-Crius waste at ME 0%: 11.1%

Pre-Crius Rounding: round to nearest on total for one run
Post-Crius Rounding: round up on total for all runs

You may want to do research on those BPO.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2014-07-22 18:45:15 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Words of wisdom
Thanks much!

It looks like on Tq, right-click 'show info' will always show the base amount - that, if i understood correctly, now is actually the 'worst case' instead of the 'best case' (aka the old 'perfect').

The actual amount is shown on Tq in the new UI when you 'install' a blueprint (though you may not notice if the amounts are small - I played around with it simulating 1,000 runs).

All this is much clearer, imho - I'm simplifying my spreadsheets as we speak. Lol

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Katherine Raven
ALTA Industries
Intergalactic Conservation Movement
#12 - 2014-07-22 19:16:31 UTC
Festers Uncle wrote:
Zhilia Mann wrote:


Same things happen in ship training with rebalances all the time. It happens.



No you still get the bonuses for the skills for the ships and the ability to fly these ships. changing this that 6 to 9 months of time on training which costs real life money, the reason pay for this account is to train, is a loss of money and time. I wasted all this time on training and research that I can not get a brand new trial account toon to build for me....


Look at what those skills now do for you. They no longer provide material efficiency, but they are far from useless. Take a look a the skills and you will see that they will actually give you a strong competitive edge in the new Industry environment. Which, keep in mind, is nothing like anything we know from before, and is also the same for everyone.
Thunder Cook
Shortbus Hauling
#13 - 2014-07-22 20:08:54 UTC
Katherine Raven wrote:
[Look at what those skills now do for you. They no longer provide material efficiency, but they are far from useless. Take a look a the skills and you will see that they will actually give you a strong competitive edge in the new Industry environment. Which, keep in mind, is nothing like anything we know from before, and is also the same for everyone.


Looking at the skills all it seems to allow is for faster building. That is it. so I can now build a frig instead of an hour now in 50 minutes, or a BS instead of 3 hours in 2.5 hours....

to me it is useless skill and I would prefer to have the skill used what I trained them for. It would be like someone who flies amarr with max skills in energy weapons and changing them to projectile saying "HEY!!! Now you can fire weapons weapons on your ship that that don't use energy. YOU ARE VERY MUCH WELCOME!"

IMHO changing skills what people paid their money for each month to train is pretty much scamming people and on the verge of theft.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#14 - 2014-07-22 20:19:53 UTC
Thunder Cook wrote:
Katherine Raven wrote:
[Look at what those skills now do for you. They no longer provide material efficiency, but they are far from useless. Take a look a the skills and you will see that they will actually give you a strong competitive edge in the new Industry environment. Which, keep in mind, is nothing like anything we know from before, and is also the same for everyone.


Looking at the skills all it seems to allow is for faster building. That is it. so I can now build a frig instead of an hour now in 50 minutes, or a BS instead of 3 hours in 2.5 hours....

to me it is useless skill and I would prefer to have the skill used what I trained them for. It would be like someone who flies amarr with max skills in energy weapons and changing them to projectile saying "HEY!!! Now you can fire weapons weapons on your ship that that don't use energy. YOU ARE VERY MUCH WELCOME!"

IMHO changing skills what people paid their money for each month to train is pretty much scamming people and on the verge of theft.


Titan pilots didn't get their SP back, neither will you.
Festers Uncle
Shortbus Hauling
#15 - 2014-07-22 20:26:39 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


Titan pilots didn't get their SP back, neither will you.




Very true, but it doesn't make it better one bit. Just because you spread crap on a bread don't try to serve it to me as a meal, it is still a crap sandwich.

To me they keep trying to nerf the game for new players to get their subscriptions, while screwing older players and expecting them to take it. when I started the game 6 years ago in my first major corp, I am the only player left out of the 150+ that was in it because of all the game changes over the years..... really don't understand why they change things like that that only hurt players in the long run by increased prices but not giving them ways in return to help recoup the isk in other areas.... other than you having to spend your money to buy plexes to buy isk.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#16 - 2014-07-22 20:39:07 UTC
Festers Uncle wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Titan pilots didn't get their SP back, neither will you.




Very true, but it doesn't make it better one bit. Just because you spread crap on a bread don't try to serve it to me as a meal, it is still a crap sandwich.

To me they keep trying to nerf the game for new players to get their subscriptions, while screwing older players and expecting them to take it. when I started the game 6 years ago in my first major corp, I am the only player left out of the 150+ that was in it because of all the game changes over the years..... really don't understand why they change things like that that only hurt players in the long run by increased prices but not giving them ways in return to help recoup the isk in other areas.... other than you having to spend your money to buy plexes to buy isk.


I'll take a little pain to gain industrialists being rewarded for leaving high sec to do industry in the more dangerous areas of EVE after a decade of being punished for leaving highsec.
Festers Uncle
Shortbus Hauling
#17 - 2014-07-22 20:45:26 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Festers Uncle wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Titan pilots didn't get their SP back, neither will you.




Very true, but it doesn't make it better one bit. Just because you spread crap on a bread don't try to serve it to me as a meal, it is still a crap sandwich.

To me they keep trying to nerf the game for new players to get their subscriptions, while screwing older players and expecting them to take it. when I started the game 6 years ago in my first major corp, I am the only player left out of the 150+ that was in it because of all the game changes over the years..... really don't understand why they change things like that that only hurt players in the long run by increased prices but not giving them ways in return to help recoup the isk in other areas.... other than you having to spend your money to buy plexes to buy isk.


I'll take a little pain to gain industrialists being rewarded for leaving high sec to do industry in the more dangerous areas of EVE after a decade of being punished for leaving highsec.


I do nothing in highsec and have been doing all my research in a WH for the past 18 months. I understand changing to improve ways things are done can be beneficial, BUT change for change sec is just wrong. these changes to me only are helping people who have never done industry and those that have spent years training the skills and researching the BPO to perfect ME have just been given a big FU. Cost is going to rise in the builds and the industrial players will have to roll those cost to the players. The other players will now have to grind more to earn more isk to be able to afford these items. How is that a beneficial change for all...
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#18 - 2014-07-22 20:47:24 UTC
Festers Uncle wrote:


I do nothing in highsec and have been doing all my research in a WH for the past 18 months. I understand changing to improve ways things are done can be beneficial, BUT change for change sec is just wrong. these changes to me only are helping people who have never done industry and those that have spent years training the skills and researching the BPO to perfect ME have just been given a big FU. Cost is going to rise in the builds and the industrial players will have to roll those cost to the players. The other players will now have to grind more to earn more isk to be able to afford these items. How is that a beneficial change for all...


Because industry outside of highsec is now not only viable but better. We have waited for a decade for this.
Festers Uncle
Shortbus Hauling
#19 - 2014-07-22 20:50:54 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


Because industry outside of highsec is now not only viable but better. We have waited for a decade for this.


Increase builds is not viable. Higher Costs for all is not a good thing. I made my isk in WH away from stations because I took the time to research and skill now anyone can do it with no skills little research and the cost is higher. How is that viable again? If the answer is that it costs the same to do it in null sec as in highsec because of station costs and the such. you got to be kidding me.
Ratter Marvo
ABCone Corp
#20 - 2014-07-22 20:51:47 UTC
Thunder Cook wrote:
Katherine Raven wrote:
[Look at what those skills now do for you. They no longer provide material efficiency, but they are far from useless. Take a look a the skills and you will see that they will actually give you a strong competitive edge in the new Industry environment. Which, keep in mind, is nothing like anything we know from before, and is also the same for everyone.


Looking at the skills all it seems to allow is for faster building. That is it. so I can now build a frig instead of an hour now in 50 minutes, or a BS instead of 3 hours in 2.5 hours....

to me it is useless skill and I would prefer to have the skill used what I trained them for. It would be like someone who flies amarr with max skills in energy weapons and changing them to projectile saying "HEY!!! Now you can fire weapons weapons on your ship that that don't use energy. YOU ARE VERY MUCH WELCOME!"

IMHO changing skills what people paid their money for each month to train is pretty much scamming people and on the verge of theft.



No, it is just so this 6 month noab can catch up with you 6 year veterans that invested all the time and money.

Imagine - wasting all that time doing all that research and everyone was complaining about lack of research slots. I bet this whole thing could have been resolved by just adding an additional 10 slots to all existing facilities.

With the no waiting to research BPOs now I expect everyone will jump on the band wagon and build, build, build.

I put a BPO in today for ME research to 10 and it will be complete in 7 days :) Cost did shock me a little bit. But in probable 14 days I will have a fully researched BPO that I can start building with - things might get cheap but the price of ores and minerals might skyrocket if everyone starts cranking out fully researched BPOs.
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