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Orca & Rorqual - Balancing pass
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M Key
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2014-06-30 21:24:47 UTC
Perhaps instead of directly mining with the Orca, give it the old rattlesnake 400m^3 drone bay and drone damage bonus. Also ability to fit MJD and bastion module. Balance the tank around surviving null belts solo with a proper active shield OR armor tank. Keep roughly the same buffer as now. It should require active tending to tank null belt rats, so passive shield regen should be nearly nothing.

It would hardly be game breaking doing T1 battleship DPS at best, with an active tank. No one is going to highsec security mission in them for example.

However it WOULD buff mining fleets by combining protection against rats with the fleet booster.

If it needs more to support the fleet, perhaps *some* logistics bonus. Easy for this to get stupid though.
Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
#22 - 2014-07-01 03:14:54 UTC
What about a t2 orca , instead of changing the T1 orca?

One thing that would be neat is to have it able to deploy into a POS like structure mode, and have larger hangar bays in general, like the OP suggests, plus possibly one non mining link option. Its ship maintenance bay would accept one or two black ops battleships, plus some smaller ships.
It would not have any covert cloak capability, but could still be bridged by black ops ships.

It would be a deep exploration ship that can deploy for days in hostile territories. Once deployed as a POS around a moon, it would not show on D-Scan, but could be probed with combat probes, or simply found out by warping to said moon....

That would really create a potential for nomadic, deep exploration and exploitation bases, as well as offer a ship with a similar focus as the current Orca but with a twist toward stealth deployment in hostile territories.

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Elusive Panda
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#23 - 2014-07-01 06:08:28 UTC
Not against improving the mining aspect of the Orca, but don't destroy it's "high-sec carrier" aspect. PLEASE.
Anthar Thebess
#24 - 2014-07-01 07:24:59 UTC
Elusive Panda wrote:
Not against improving the mining aspect of the Orca, but don't destroy it's "high-sec carrier" aspect. PLEASE.

No one is talking about changing this.

Why give orca 800k ore bay?
Because currently Freighters are capable moving as many goods easily , any type of goods, and this will be ORE only bay.

Primary role of an orca is supporting mining operation , so having orca capable hauling as many ore as freighter is logical item.
Will it obsolete new industrials?
No.
Those T1 haulers cost 2mil each , have minimal skill requirements.
Orca cost 500mil + and have to be trained to be used.

800km3 ore hold will put more pressure to have this ship on the grid.

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Doris VanGit
The Rusty Muskets
#25 - 2014-07-16 01:07:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Doris VanGit
A little more thought on the orca, maybe

  • How about give it the compression bonus, and remove the skill books for doing this. No industrial core neither.
  • Increase the Storage bays, especially for the doing the compression etc
  • Increase the Ship Bay for all types
  • Give it some more slots, especially highs.
  • Give it the ability to use a couple of strip miners, and a small bonus to these. Why you ask? For the peeps that do small scale mining, like myself. I duel box and pay for my accounts and having an orca in the belt with one ship mining just seems a bit slow. May as well have a hulk and a mack instead.

    • After all, the other command ships give bonuses and fight. So why cant the orca mine and give bonuses?

    This will, I think. Give the hulk and the orca more use in small mining ops

    Do something for the smaller gangs for a change

    Only a thought
    Mole Guy
    Bob's Bait and Tackle
    #26 - 2014-07-16 10:10:06 UTC
    then we can give the orca hydraulics and send it to low rider competitions. maybe some 18"s and spinners...

    maybe twin turbo the rorqual and send it to the drag strip so it can run down interceptors.


    they were designed back in the day before we could move large amounts of ore like with todays barges and boost.
    the orca only holding 50k ore Is pretty small. it could be increased a LOT as suggested. 800k is too much IMO. the 250k the rorqual has could be ok on the orca since it is severely limited to ore only. then we could buff the rorqual.
    boosting mining drones would be good.
    as we stated in several other posts, a pilot should not lose their ability to mine when stepping up. a command ship doesnt lose its ability to kill. a carrier doesnt lose its ability to damage.

    it should not be more than a hulk. but to mine the = of a mack or skiff isnt too much to ask. even if we have to do it with drones.

    not allowing 2 rorquals in the same belt? i dunno..they can protect each other. if they are finally made to hit the belts, they need defense. i dont like the vacuum cleaner idea tho. they should get a strait up bonus to mining like an exhumer.
    give them the same bonus a skiff gets. 1 strip miner, great range because of the rorquals power level. also, since it can generate more power, give it more range balanced by the same % cap draw. like 50% bonus to range=50% more cap pull on the rorqual or orca.

    if the rorqual has to deploy to work, it needs range on the laser. it cant just undeploy at will and more closer to the roids.

    give the rorqual 500k ORE hold.

    not a good idea to switch the cargo to fleet hangar. cant deploy poses from fleet hangar. i use the rorqual as a jump freighter most of the time since its so broke, and we use it to setup poses. 40k fleet is plenty. but allow it to pull heavy water from fleet hangar too for boosting.

    if i am boosting from the pos and one of my guys wants to put water in the rorqual, he can only put it in the fleet bay. doesnt work from there.
    Doris VanGit
    The Rusty Muskets
    #27 - 2014-07-21 15:10:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Doris VanGit
    Just to give this a daily Bump, as these 2 ships should be looked at sooner rather than later. You never know a Dev might spot this.

    I agree with you Mole Guy, similar mining ability to a Skiff or mack. And mining drones.
    With a greater ability to be deployed longer in systems without stations. With what has been said before if reference to ore storage.
    All whilst giving the relevant bonuses.

    And too be fair, why not give it more slots, it is after all a capital ship of sort.
    Bronson Hughes
    The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
    #28 - 2014-07-21 15:36:39 UTC
    Something to keep in mind regarding the Orca (and ore hauling in general) is that ore compression is coming to hisec. Any mining corp having the wherewithal to anchor a small Compression POS (which they should given the opening up of 0.8+ systems and the removal of standings requirements) will see their ore hauling capabilities vastly improved. That 50k Ore Hold on your Orca will, depending on what you're hauling, become a ~500k Ore Hold once you anchor a small Compression POS.

    The Orca is fine as-is. I could see it maybe getting some sort of bonuses to drones, or granting boosts to in-fleet, on-grid drones like a Titan does with ships, but neither of those are really necessary. It's a great multi-purpose vessel with bonuses for mining boosts, and it fills it's role rather well.

    The Rorqual needs some serious attention, especially since the new Compression Array will supplant the Rorq's only unique role. It doesn't just need a buff, it needs a purpose. Even CCP has acknowledged this.

    Relatively Notorious By Association

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    Marox Calendale
    Xynodyne
    The Initiative.
    #29 - 2014-07-21 16:02:16 UTC
    Doris VanGit wrote:
    Just to give this a daily Bump, as these 2 ships should be looked at sooner rather than later. You never know a Dev might spot this.

    I agree with you Mole Guy, similar mining ability to a Skiff or mack. And mining drones.
    With a greater ability to be deployed longer in systems without stations. With what has been said before if reference to ore storage.
    All whilst giving the relevant bonuses.

    And too be fair, why not give it more slots, it is after all a capital ship of sort.


    The Orca is fine as it is as ore compression is comming to highsec.

    For the Rorqual ideas go the right thread
    Fer'isam K'ahn
    SAS Veterinarians
    #30 - 2014-07-21 16:18:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Fer'isam K'ahn
    Doris VanGit wrote:
    A little more thought on the orca, maybe

  • How about give it the compression bonus, and remove the skill books for doing this. No industrial core neither.
  • Increase the Storage bays, especially for the doing the compression etc
  • Increase the Ship Bay for all types
  • Give it some more slots, especially highs.
  • Give it the ability to use a couple of strip miners, and a small bonus to these. Why you ask? For the peeps that do small scale mining, like myself. I duel box and pay for my accounts and having an orca in the belt with one ship mining just seems a bit slow. May as well have a hulk and a mack instead.

    • After all, the other command ships give bonuses and fight. So why cant the orca mine and give bonuses?

    This will, I think. Give the hulk and the orca more use in small mining ops

    Do something for the smaller gangs for a change

    Only a thought

    I agree with most perceptions, that the Orca is 'almost' fine. Giving it extra highs and strip miner ability makes the ship, as I stated,
    the 2-in-1 ship and would tip balance. Why fly a Mack or Hulk if you can have an Orca which is like an exhumer plus the boost.
    The tipping point should still be with 4 or 5 ships, bring an extra barge isntead of the Orca, or 3 with max skills, T2 fit. No perfect 2 man fleet boost nonsense.

    The same goes for 'just' some extra high slots, with command processors you will be able to get more then 3 links on it (unless you include a max 3 limitations or cut mid slots) and devaluate some of the CS.

    I stand with my suggestion to slightly increase the ore hold (or swap the bonus) and increase drone yield do give it a more active role, a different one and keep it for balance reasons below the average exhumer.
    Rowells
    Blackwater USA Inc.
    Pandemic Horde
    #31 - 2014-07-21 20:17:36 UTC
    Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
    Doris VanGit wrote:
    A little more thought on the orca, maybe

  • How about give it the compression bonus, and remove the skill books for doing this. No industrial core neither.
  • Increase the Storage bays, especially for the doing the compression etc
  • Increase the Ship Bay for all types
  • Give it some more slots, especially highs.
  • Give it the ability to use a couple of strip miners, and a small bonus to these. Why you ask? For the peeps that do small scale mining, like myself. I duel box and pay for my accounts and having an orca in the belt with one ship mining just seems a bit slow. May as well have a hulk and a mack instead.

    • After all, the other command ships give bonuses and fight. So why cant the orca mine and give bonuses?

    This will, I think. Give the hulk and the orca more use in small mining ops

    Do something for the smaller gangs for a change

    Only a thought

    I agree with most perceptions, that the Orca is 'almost' fine. Giving it extra highs and strip miner ability makes the ship, as I stated,
    the 2-in-1 ship and would tip balance. Why fly a Mack or Hulk if you can have an Orca which is like an exhumer plus the boost.
    The tipping point should still be with 4 or 5 ships, bring an extra barge isntead of the Orca, or 3 with max skills, T2 fit. No perfect 2 man fleet boost nonsense.

    The same goes for 'just' some extra high slots, with command processors you will be able to get more then 3 links on it (unless you include a max 3 limitations or cut mid slots) and devaluate some of the CS.

    I stand with my suggestion to slightly increase the ore hold (or swap the bonus) and increase drone yield do give it a more active role, a different one and keep it for balance reasons below the average exhumer.

    Devalue command ships?

    "Guys we are not taking this fleet anywhere unless we get an orca booster ASAP"

    No. No bonuses to other link types just means it's another T1 battle cruiser. No problems here.
    Fer'isam K'ahn
    SAS Veterinarians
    #32 - 2014-07-22 08:58:18 UTC
    ???
    T1 BC start out with 1 link, Orca with 3. For non roams that is pretty decent. not to mention refit options. Anyone using an orca for mining with more then one mining link is kind of a waste. I use the Orca for resistance boost etc. Not to mention that it is way easier to get into an orca. And I said devalue, not replace.
    Lando Cenvax
    The Nose Picker Clown Group
    #33 - 2014-07-27 10:38:40 UTC
    After the recent industrial changes the Orca indeed needs a buff. After the Miasmos was introduced, the Orca as Ore-Hauler was finally obsolete. It really deserves a larger Ore-Hold -not necessarily to haul the ore, but to collect it until the hauler arrives. so 250.000m³ would be already sufficient, with a 20% bonus per industrial command ship skill. That would end up in 500k m³ uncompressed ore.
    Then either the Orca could dock quickly (resulting in boost being unavailable shortly) or a even speed-fit freighter could pick the entire load.
    Keep in mind: The Orca is a fleet support ship while the Miasmos is just a fast standard industrial, that costs a fraction of the Orca. So, I think requesting a serious buff to the Orca's Ore-Hold far beyond the Miasmos is reasonable -as reasonable as that a freighter should have far more cargo than a Nereus.
    Forcing the Orca to be on-grid would only make sense in combination with said ore-hold buff so there's actually a benefit having the orca on grid. But there is a good reason, why forcing an Orca on-grid is a bad idea: it would finally kill low-sec mining ops. An Orca can be scanned down within a minute and would be to slow to warp out fast enough (staying aligned all the time is not an Option if you want to use the ore-hold of it). To overcome this, we would need additional defense, like warp-core strength or better inertia. And, no,... the average mining fleet doesn't have a bunch of PvP-Pilots on standby that can warp to them immediately -neither can barges/exhumer defend an orca.
    Saisin wrote:
    What about a t2 orca , instead of changing the T1 orca?

    One thing that would be neat is to have it able to deploy into a POS like structure mode, and have larger hangar bays in general, like the OP suggests, plus possibly one non mining link option. Its ship maintenance bay would accept one or two black ops battleships, plus some smaller ships.
    It would not have any covert cloak capability, but could still be bridged by black ops ships.

    It would be a deep exploration ship that can deploy for days in hostile territories. Once deployed as a POS around a moon, it would not show on D-Scan, but could be probed with combat probes, or simply found out by warping to said moon....

    That would really create a potential for nomadic, deep exploration and exploitation bases, as well as offer a ship with a similar focus as the current Orca but with a twist toward stealth deployment in hostile territories.
    A T2-Orca sounds like a great idea in first place, but I would rather just give the T1 Orca a jump-drive.
    A "plasma-forcefield"-module that provides a normal POS-Forcefield and Stealth-Technology (Signature-Tanking down to a few meters) to Orca and Rorqual would be a great addition. That forcefield should only have the size of the ship and only barges/exhumers/mining frig as well covert ops can remain in it. The forcefield can be switched on and of by the Pilot like a cloaking device to allow pilots to change to other ships. Without that restriction, I'm afraid, it would be abused to much for military use.
    Sara Tosa
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #34 - 2014-07-27 11:23:08 UTC
    first of all I would set a focus on exactly -what- orca and rorqual should be, as it is now they have bonuses and stats all around the place without an exact focus.
    then we can decide the details (boni, fittings, attributes) from that.
    I mean, wth rorqual cargo scan bonus means?
    do you see rorquals on grid in jita-hek route scanning freigthers to call primary for ganking squads? Oo
    Celthric Kanerian
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #35 - 2014-07-28 20:33:46 UTC
    A role bonus that gave extra drone mining yield would be most delightful...
    Would be fun to see a ship launching 10 mining drones on an asteroid.
    Sara Tosa
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #36 - 2014-07-28 21:07:18 UTC
    Celthric Kanerian wrote:
    A role bonus that gave extra drone mining yield would be most delightful...
    Would be fun to see a ship launching 10 mining drones on an asteroid.

    imho orca focus should be to be -support- for miners, not mining barge "leveled up"
    Paynus Maiassus
    Imperial Academy
    Amarr Empire
    #37 - 2014-07-28 23:38:43 UTC
    First, they've already said the orca is working as intended and will not be the subject of any currently slated balance pass, while they have specifically said that the Rorqual would be.

    Second, there's already a thread about the Rorqual that the devs have said they are looking at. Please post your Rorqual ideas here.
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