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Material Efficiency skill changed to Advanced Industry

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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#381 - 2014-07-20 08:54:10 UTC
For what it is worth, I like the skill Advanced Industry, however I do think that it shouldn't be introduced in this manner.

I think a refund is in order, as the skill isn't the same as what people trained.

I however will be investing skill points from such a refund into Advanced Industry.
Pixi Potts
Pixi Potts Parcel Service Inc.
#382 - 2014-07-20 15:05:24 UTC
Maduin Shi wrote:
I'm wondering if we can just get the SP refund but have it so that it accelerates our SP gain rate to something like 3,600 SP per hour (1 per second) instead of just letting players apply it all immediately, that would address Greyscale's concerns about the psychological satisfaction aspect of progressing your character over time. You'd just run the math so that the refunded SP would drain off depending on the difference between the 3,600 SP/hr max rate and the rate you would otherwise gain SP with your current neural map, implants, skill attributes etc.

Players would have to wait awhile to get their SP refund but it gives an incentive to continue subscribing to obtain all the benefits. Then CCP can just remove this ME skill wholesale and replace it with nothing and we can be done with this whole charade.


Also same for the Rigs, people wasted time to train them to be able to use T2 rigs,
ccp should at least refund the SP or the time spent on training to what ever skill they change,
as people are paying Subscriptions
LiKuei
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#383 - 2014-07-20 17:35:07 UTC
I for one would like me skills reimbursed ... I picked them for specific reasons and I do not want them changed. Give me back points for ME and Rigs since you have invalidated those skills.
Kuroi Aurgnet
Celestial Phoenix Industries
#384 - 2014-07-20 18:04:01 UTC
guys. please. We are all visibly upset- but STOP ASKING FOR SP REFUNDS. It's already been stated that it WON'T happen- and you are greyscale's time when he kindly said he would take the time to address our concerns before crius. Be a little constructive, please. I, Too, feel an outrage about a lot of my skills being invalidated- but we can either waste time crying about it and telling them we want something that isn't going to happen, or we can put our heads together and think of an effective solution that doesn't involve things CCP says they aren't going to do.

There have already been some great ideas in this thread. Lets elaborate on those, and maybe throw around some support on THOSE instead, so we can get something accomplished before this just becomes another trainwreck. We are screaming at the devs that theyre doing their job wrong- but we arent really being that good of a customer base right now, either.

Constructivism, please.

Just that hint of cynicism the world needs now and then.

Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#385 - 2014-07-20 18:24:42 UTC
Pixi Potts wrote:
Maduin Shi wrote:
I'm wondering if we can just get the SP refund but have it so that it accelerates our SP gain rate to something like 3,600 SP per hour (1 per second) instead of just letting players apply it all immediately, that would address Greyscale's concerns about the psychological satisfaction aspect of progressing your character over time. You'd just run the math so that the refunded SP would drain off depending on the difference between the 3,600 SP/hr max rate and the rate you would otherwise gain SP with your current neural map, implants, skill attributes etc.

Players would have to wait awhile to get their SP refund but it gives an incentive to continue subscribing to obtain all the benefits. Then CCP can just remove this ME skill wholesale and replace it with nothing and we can be done with this whole charade.


Also same for the Rigs, people wasted time to train them to be able to use T2 rigs,
ccp should at least refund the SP or the time spent on training to what ever skill they change,
as people are paying Subscriptions



Nah, people just had alliance or corp mates plug rigs in for them

this has been exploited over the years

Having the skill up still reduces drawbacks, which they said may increase or having the skill may decrease them further..
Scout Vyvorant
Doomheim
#386 - 2014-07-20 22:17:22 UTC
Why don't you turn the skill, in addition to the 1-5% faster manufacturing, to something similar to custom code expertise?

"Reduce the influence of the system activity index on your jobs by 1-5% if you are building on a pos."

It wont make the skill "a must have" for a novice industrialist, but specialized industrialists that build stuff in their station will want it to 5 for sure.
Dyscordia
Super Elite Friendship Club
#387 - 2014-07-21 00:06:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Dyscordia
Kuroi Aurgnet wrote:
guys. please. We are all visibly upset- but STOP ASKING FOR SP REFUNDS. It's already been stated that it WON'T happen


Honestly, everyone here is entitled to their opinion and telling people not to say or do something inhibits important discussion.

Also, never say never. If enough people voice their concerns CCP will evaluate ALL options, which inclueds SP REFUNDS. If you want I can list all the things they started off doing/saying then ended up changing due to Player discussion. I happen to agree that a refund is in order. Let's hope they do the right thing.

It's also great that people have come up with some interesting options and people should expand on those. Hopefully players can reinvest their refunded SP into these new options and see if it pans out with all the massive changes to Industry. EVE is better when players can make their own training decisions.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#388 - 2014-07-21 01:28:27 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
If we had to choose one solution, which are people favoring more - 3-5% all jobs time reduction, or additional skills with this skill at 5 as a prereq?

If I had to pick just one of these, the job time reduction. I'd err on the low end as otherwise you could end up with unintended consequences around null sec outposts with their very high time reductions already.
It won't personally do much to me, as I don't have any BPO's researching atm due to the capital cost of getting new BPO's. But when I do get new BPO's it will be significant then.

Industry already has a very large number of skills around invention, so unless this number is getting reduced with the Invention overhaul I'd be wary of adding in more skills to the industry tree. So any additional skills I feel should only be looked at along side the invention overhaul to ensure that Industrialists aren't getting overloaded with so many specialist skills it takes forever to break into a specialist market.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#389 - 2014-07-21 11:47:28 UTC
Mhari Dson wrote:
Unfortunately the list of promise/fail that has come before keeps me wondering if you'll be the one to break the cycle (hope!).


We're *all* hoping that this new release schedule helps us break lots of old unwanted cycles, don't worry :)




What we are currently leaning towards is:
- Adjusting the Advanced Industry skill to be a ~3-5%/level reduction to the time of all industry jobs, targeting (but *not promising*, to be clear) a July 29th update.
- Adding some additional industry-specialization skills requiring this skill at 5 once the release has settled out and there's some consensus on what would be valuable bonuses.

This is not final and we're soliciting further discussion still :)
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
#390 - 2014-07-21 12:06:22 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Mhari Dson wrote:
Unfortunately the list of promise/fail that has come before keeps me wondering if you'll be the one to break the cycle (hope!).


We're *all* hoping that this new release schedule helps us break lots of old unwanted cycles, don't worry :)




What we are currently leaning towards is:
- Adjusting the Advanced Industry skill to be a ~3-5%/level reduction to the time of all industry jobs, targeting (but *not promising*, to be clear) a July 29th update.
- Adding some additional industry-specialization skills requiring this skill at 5 once the release has settled out and there's some consensus on what would be valuable bonuses.

This is not final and we're soliciting further discussion still :)



Sounds good, much better than hoped. Once the release hits TQ I'll start doin some brainstorming to that end as well. (don't have the room to add another copy of eve atm)
Celor Ma'fer
Jouhinen Inc
#391 - 2014-07-21 13:17:28 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
What we are currently leaning towards is:
- Adjusting the Advanced Industry skill to be a ~3-5%/level reduction to the time of all industry jobs, targeting (but *not promising*, to be clear) a July 29th update.
- Adding some additional industry-specialization skills requiring this skill at 5 once the release has settled out and there's some consensus on what would be valuable bonuses.

This is not final and we're soliciting further discussion still :)



Just to be clear. Tomorrow the skill will go in at 1% time reduction to manufacturing per level, then on the 29th (finger's crossed) it will be upped to 3-5% across all Industry jobs?

If I have that correct and you can provide the Advanced Industry skill change in a week, then I will be happy with that. I think the earlier poster who said that you should start a new thread based on what the new skills may be, as soon as Crius is released has a good idea.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#392 - 2014-07-21 13:23:40 UTC
Celor Ma'fer wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
What we are currently leaning towards is:
- Adjusting the Advanced Industry skill to be a ~3-5%/level reduction to the time of all industry jobs, targeting (but *not promising*, to be clear) a July 29th update.
- Adding some additional industry-specialization skills requiring this skill at 5 once the release has settled out and there's some consensus on what would be valuable bonuses.

This is not final and we're soliciting further discussion still :)



Just to be clear. Tomorrow the skill will go in at 1% time reduction to manufacturing per level, then on the 29th (finger's crossed) it will be upped to 3-5% across all Industry jobs?

If I have that correct and you can provide the Advanced Industry skill change in a week, then I will be happy with that. I think the earlier poster who said that you should start a new thread based on what the new skills may be, as soon as Crius is released has a good idea.


Yup, that's my current thinking.
Bitter Fremlin
Heimatar Enhanced Fleet Industries
#393 - 2014-07-21 13:40:35 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
- Adjusting the Advanced Industry skill to be a ~3-5%/level reduction to the time of all industry jobs, targeting (but *not promising*, to be clear) a July 29th update.

Time reduction is all well and good but it mainly helps those who can choose their number of runs (eg. T1 BPOs) or whose jobs take a long time -- or both! Otherwise the lack of control/short build time means it is wasted unless you can be at the keyboard when the job finishes. The difference between 4 hours or 3 to make 10 150mm Light Autos is meaningless if you aren't available for 5 hours ;-)

Instead, as suggested above, how about something that adjusts workforce costs? "Employee Relations", adjusting all base job costs (manufacture, copying, research, etc) by x% per level. x should be small enough that it doesn't overwhelm the new SCI, but large enough that it makes a meaningful difference.

That gives the Industrialists yet another choice -- more training time would mean they could use a more convenient, busier, system for the same costs as the lesser-trained competitors. And since it would apply equally to every job, regardless of length, it would be useful to both the casual and the hardcore Industrialist.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#394 - 2014-07-21 13:54:01 UTC
Bitter Fremlin wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
- Adjusting the Advanced Industry skill to be a ~3-5%/level reduction to the time of all industry jobs, targeting (but *not promising*, to be clear) a July 29th update.

Time reduction is all well and good but it mainly helps those who can choose their number of runs (eg. T1 BPOs) or whose jobs take a long time -- or both! Otherwise the lack of control/short build time means it is wasted unless you can be at the keyboard when the job finishes. The difference between 4 hours or 3 to make 10 150mm Light Autos is meaningless if you aren't available for 5 hours ;-)

Instead, as suggested above, how about something that adjusts workforce costs? "Employee Relations", adjusting all base job costs (manufacture, copying, research, etc) by x% per level. x should be small enough that it doesn't overwhelm the new SCI, but large enough that it makes a meaningful difference.

That gives the Industrialists yet another choice -- more training time would mean they could use a more convenient, busier, system for the same costs as the lesser-trained competitors. And since it would apply equally to every job, regardless of length, it would be useful to both the casual and the hardcore Industrialist.


- We fully understand the issue about short jobs; the reason an "all industry jobs" skill seems more universally valuable is that it includes blueprint research, which at higher levels offers a fairly clear benefit for everyone on the vast majority of blueprints.
- The problem with a workforce cost reduction is finding x that satisfies both constraints you mention - the costs are already pitched at "as low as we can make them while remaining relevant", so reducing them further is a difficult thing to balance.
Maduin Shi
MAGA Inc
#395 - 2014-07-21 15:37:18 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

- We fully understand the issue about short jobs; the reason an "all industry jobs" skill seems more universally valuable is that it includes blueprint research, which at higher levels offers a fairly clear benefit for everyone on the vast majority of blueprints.


....Except for those that manufacture stuff for which there is no BPO Sad

CCP Greyscale wrote:

- The problem with a workforce cost reduction is finding x that satisfies both constraints you mention - the costs are already pitched at "as low as we can make them while remaining relevant", so reducing them further is a difficult thing to balance.


So you can up the cost next patch and then knock it down with this new skill. Yeah its artificial but so is the whole game, we'll get over it. BTW, as a side note, you should assign Teams to factions and have them charge some LP in addition to ISK. Give mission runners something more to do after removal of all these POS standings requirements.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#396 - 2014-07-21 15:49:18 UTC
Maduin Shi wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

- We fully understand the issue about short jobs; the reason an "all industry jobs" skill seems more universally valuable is that it includes blueprint research, which at higher levels offers a fairly clear benefit for everyone on the vast majority of blueprints.


....Except for those that manufacture stuff for which there is no BPO Sad

CCP Greyscale wrote:

- The problem with a workforce cost reduction is finding x that satisfies both constraints you mention - the costs are already pitched at "as low as we can make them while remaining relevant", so reducing them further is a difficult thing to balance.


So you can up the cost next patch and then knock it down with this new skill. Yeah its artificial but so is the whole game, we'll get over it. BTW, as a side note, you should assign Teams to factions and have them charge some LP in addition to ISK. Give mission runners something more to do after removal of all these POS standings requirements.


...and are eg inventing things with very short invention times, yeah, at that point it gets pretty flaky. We are intending to catch at least the invention case in the near future, by allowing you to do multiple consecutive invention jobs, but I doubt that catches all the edge cases. If there are others, I'd be happy to have a look at them and see if we can mitigate that if people can list them out.

And yes, we can fake cost shifts, but that will need a bit more time to think through and manage nicely. Might well come with the advanced skills we're looking into!
Maduin Shi
MAGA Inc
#397 - 2014-07-21 16:21:13 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Maduin Shi wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

- We fully understand the issue about short jobs; the reason an "all industry jobs" skill seems more universally valuable is that it includes blueprint research, which at higher levels offers a fairly clear benefit for everyone on the vast majority of blueprints.


....Except for those that manufacture stuff for which there is no BPO Sad

CCP Greyscale wrote:

- The problem with a workforce cost reduction is finding x that satisfies both constraints you mention - the costs are already pitched at "as low as we can make them while remaining relevant", so reducing them further is a difficult thing to balance.


So you can up the cost next patch and then knock it down with this new skill. Yeah its artificial but so is the whole game, we'll get over it. BTW, as a side note, you should assign Teams to factions and have them charge some LP in addition to ISK. Give mission runners something more to do after removal of all these POS standings requirements.


...and are eg inventing things with very short invention times, yeah, at that point it gets pretty flaky. We are intending to catch at least the invention case in the near future, by allowing you to do multiple consecutive invention jobs, but I doubt that catches all the edge cases. If there are others, I'd be happy to have a look at them and see if we can mitigate that if people can list them out.

And yes, we can fake cost shifts, but that will need a bit more time to think through and manage nicely. Might well come with the advanced skills we're looking into!


<--- "brews" boosters in wormholes, how's that for an edge case? Blink
Bitter Fremlin
Heimatar Enhanced Fleet Industries
#398 - 2014-07-21 16:53:24 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Bitter Fremlin wrote:
- We fully understand the issue about short jobs; the reason an "all industry jobs" skill seems more universally valuable is that it includes blueprint research, which at higher levels offers a fairly clear benefit for everyone on the vast majority of blueprints.

Assuming that every character who has the skill is also going to be conducting research. And of the kind, and at the level, of which will benefit from those time reductions. Which, I'd hazard, is nowhere near every character who currently benefits from the ME skill.

[quote]- The problem with a workforce cost reduction is finding x that satisfies both constraints you mention - the costs are already pitched at "as low as we can make them while remaining relevant", so reducing them further is a difficult thing to balance.

You can obviously better estimate the impact of SCI on TQ than we can from playing on the test server with its highly skewed numbers. All I would say is that any reduction in job costs needn't be large to be significant to the players and that, as a cumulative modifier, a 5% reduction would be worth a lot less in real ISK in a sleepy backwater than in a busy industrial hub and so shouldn't tilt the market too much.

I thought about suggesting batch jobs, but that smacks too much of EVE-offline for my taste...

I'm not sure what the problem with faking cost shifts is? The vast majority of people already doing Industry will have ME5 right now, so upping the job cost by 5% and giving a 1%-per-level discount will leave New Eden just as is, minus (most of) the torches and pitchforks :-) And should be relatively trivial to do by altering the "adjusted material cost" used in the calculation (so you don't have an ugly "1.05" in the formula). That 5% will hardly be a bar to new Industry entrants without the skill -- they can easily cover that by shopping around for materials, picking a cheaper manufacturing base, or selling smarter.

There should be a skill that takes appreciable time to learn from 4 to 5, that differentiates the professional Industrialist from the hobbiest, and gives significant benefit to those who spend the time. ME was that skill, its replacement isn't.

Oh, and if that sounds too much like a giant whine -- looking forward to tomorrow. Interesting times (urinating dog).
Mackenzie Nolen
Doomheim
#399 - 2014-07-21 17:28:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Mackenzie Nolen
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Yup, that's my current thinking.


I still think it's a mistake to force the TE choice into this skill. Even moreso when it's going to be for non-mfg purposes which gets really muddy (all my bp research/copy alts certainly aren't happy about having to cross train this).

I still prefer my idea from a page or two back; have this skill amplify the bonuses received from teams (10% per level). That's the best generalized-specialized outcome you could ask for. A general skill we all have to V that amplifies the specialized choices we each make via teams is far more appealing to me than a forced TE bonus I still don't want :) Yet at the same time it doesn't need to be at level 5 for a new indy type to compete with careful team/system selection.

Also, anything that goes wrong with it you can blame on teams rather than the changed skill and, as teams are new and shiny, you'll have a lot of lattitude to tweak those values later without outrage.
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
#400 - 2014-07-21 22:09:39 UTC
Mackenzie Nolen wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Yup, that's my current thinking.


I still think it's a mistake to force the TE choice into this skill. Even moreso when it's going to be for non-mfg purposes which gets really muddy (all my bp research/copy alts certainly aren't happy about having to cross train this).

I still prefer my idea from a page or two back; have this skill amplify the bonuses received from teams (10% per level). That's the best generalized-specialized outcome you could ask for. A general skill we all have to V that amplifies the specialized choices we each make via teams is far more appealing to me than a forced TE bonus I still don't want :) Yet at the same time it doesn't need to be at level 5 for a new indy type to compete with careful team/system selection.

Also, anything that goes wrong with it you can blame on teams rather than the changed skill and, as teams are new and shiny, you'll have a lot of lattitude to tweak those values later without outrage.



By the same token a team bonus is going to mean very little to people in systems that don't have enough going on to attract a team to begin with.