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Customer Support lifting previous restrictions regarding war decs

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Author
Rellik B00n
Lethal Death Squad
#381 - 2011-12-04 04:13:14 UTC
posting in an unstuck sticky.
[Of a request for change ask: Who Benefits?](https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=199765)
Russell Casey
Doomheim
#382 - 2011-12-04 05:26:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Russell Casey
Farrina wrote:
Quote:
you don't understand "griefing" as defined by the devs...


Except the Devs don't run the game. The players do.


False. Helicity learned this the hard way when he tried telling one of them to DIAF.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#383 - 2011-12-04 07:51:08 UTC
Russell Casey wrote:
Farrina wrote:
Quote:
you don't understand "griefing" as defined by the devs...


Except the Devs don't run the game. The players do.


False. Helicity learned this the hard way when he tried telling one of them to DIAF.


Sorry they got your hopes up, but if you hadn't heard, Helicity's back.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=459247#post459247

IIRC, it was due to popular uproar by the players. So what lesson was learned?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#384 - 2011-12-04 08:00:07 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Russell Casey wrote:
Farrina wrote:
Quote:
you don't understand "griefing" as defined by the devs...


Except the Devs don't run the game. The players do.


False. Helicity learned this the hard way when he tried telling one of them to DIAF.


Sorry they got your hopes up, but if you hadn't heard, Helicity's back.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=459247#post459247

IIRC, it was due to popular uproar by the players. So what lesson was learned?
Nothing at all to do with the players. CCP's bans are rarely permanent. She was punished (as they saw it), she was allowed back after a period of time. Banning is simply a short prison sentence ... there are rarely life sentences and executions.
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#385 - 2011-12-04 08:13:42 UTC
Russell Casey wrote:
Farrina wrote:
Quote:
you don't understand "griefing" as defined by the devs...


Except the Devs don't run the game. The players do.


False. Helicity learned this the hard way when he tried telling one of them to DIAF.


Helicity's ban had nothing to do with Hulkageddon, your point?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

JC Anderson
RED ROSE THORN
#386 - 2011-12-04 08:22:38 UTC
Andski wrote:
Russell Casey wrote:
Farrina wrote:
Quote:
you don't understand "griefing" as defined by the devs...


Except the Devs don't run the game. The players do.


False. Helicity learned this the hard way when he tried telling one of them to DIAF.


Helicity's ban had nothing to do with Hulkageddon, your point?


I think he just meant that the ban was given out by a dev after her message to DIAF was directed at one.. In reply to, "players run the game not the devs."
ShipToaster
#387 - 2011-12-06 20:04:31 UTC
Approaching two months and still nothing on this.

.

Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#388 - 2011-12-06 20:11:02 UTC
ShipToaster wrote:
Approaching two months and still nothing on this.


Wow... two months and I still don't care.

If someone escapes your dec, too effing bad. Dec someone else.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#389 - 2011-12-07 19:37:51 UTC
Permit me to ramble a moment, so as to make some small use of the subscription money I so foolishly gave to CCP, thinking that their work on 'FiS' represented a resurgence of interest in the game, only to find that in the background they are hammering the final nails into the coffin of the most populated area of the game.

When I used to post on this forum regularly, 'griefer' was a dirty word, and you'd immeditely get shot down for using it. Now I come back and find that anyone who wants to blow up spaceships in highsec is now a 'griefer' according to the majority of posters. That pretty much tells you everything you need to know about where CCP is taking the game.

But since people are being Wrong On The Internet, here I am.


"Griefing"

No. There is no such thing as griefing in EVE, or rather, the term applies only to a very small number of edge cases, as defined by CCP. Blowing up ships is a perfectly natural thing to want to do in the game, as is going after the easy targets. When I play Battlefield, and I run into someone who is new and bad at the game, I kill them. That is not 'griefing', that is playing the game. Shooting people is fun. The same holds true of EVE. Blowing up ships is fun (so I'm told).

"Noob Stomping"

You might say, "noob stomping is just dumb and is bad for the game" and I would agree, but it's not an issue, since actual noobs are in NPC corps, and thus can only be suicide ganked. To be wardecced, you must start or join a player corp, voluntarily opening yourself to the possibility of a wardec. By joining a player corp, you are declaring that you are stepping out of the kiddy pool. In this way, all wardecs are in fact consensual; nobody can wardec unless you choose to be in a player corp, just as they cannot kill you unless you choose to undock, or scam you unless you choose to chase free lunches.

"It's a sandbox"

But then, some bright spark in the back pipes up, EVE is a sandbox, so I should be able to do whatever I want. EVE is indeed a sandbox, however it is a Multiplayer Sandbox. The definition of a sandbox is not "I can do whatever I want", it is that rather than providing a specific experience, the game provides an environment and tools with which to craft your own experience. For single-player games, these definitions are functionally the same. The problem with a multiplayer sandbox is that not only can you do whatever you want, so can everyone else. You want to mine in highsec in complete peace? The game lets you. It's the other players that are the problem.

The hypocrisy of demanding the freedom to do what you like, while simultaneously demanding or celebrating the curtailment of other people's playstyles should be self-evident, but apparently it's not.

"EVE isn't a PvP game"

Yes, it really is. Being, as it is, a multiplayer sandbox, it is a shared environment which we all inhabit together and all affect. For any of it to be non-PvP, all of it would have to be non-PvP. Even if CCP made it so it was impossible to blow up spaceships in highsec, highsec would still affect the rest of the game just by being there. As long as we are all playing the same game, the guy in the corner mining endlessly has an effect on the guys fighting a war in the other corner. And so, requests to be able to act with impunity will be not be received well by those who actually understand the game.

"But people want PvE"

If people really want PvE, they are in the wrong game. End of story. But there is a positive feedback loop here. Carebears join a harsh PvP game. Carebears whine en masse (in the way that only carebears can whine) that there is harshness and PvP in this harsh PvP game. CCP tone down the harshness, and reduce the PvP opportunities. Being a more 'accessible' game, more carebears join. The whining gets louder. More nerfs. It goes on and on in a never ending cycle, eventually leading to PvP being marginalised in the areas carebears inhabit.

In this way they not only impact other people's playstyles, but also change the fundamental nature of the game, all the while whining about how everyone should be able to play however they want. And the worst part is that game like EVE are in the minority, and yet carebears insist on coming here and trying to convert it into one of their massively singleplayer games.

And this is what irks me (since the rule 'change' doesn't affect me). Carebears are the most catered to group in the game. Sure it was originally designed to be harsh, but basically ever since launch, it has steadily been getting less and less so. People play a game which doesn't cater to them, and whine and whine until it is changed to cater to them, with their call to arms being "everyone should be able to play as they want". Hypocrisy or just stupidity? You decide.

You may argue that carebears should have a place to live in the game. Carebears in the sense of miners, traders and industrialists (such as myself) can find a home anywhere in the game. You think there is no industry in 0.0? Carebears in the sense of people who don't want meaningful player interaction have a place to live: WoW.

Anyway, this has gone on long enough and no-one is going to read it all, so here is the tl;dr:

If you have ever used the word 'griefer' seriously, or think war decs are bad, or you want to be able to play without any interference from other players, gb2/WoW.

Witty Image - Stream

Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment

Gogela
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#390 - 2011-12-07 20:04:29 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Russell Casey wrote:
Farrina wrote:
Quote:
you don't understand "griefing" as defined by the devs...


Except the Devs don't run the game. The players do.


False. Helicity learned this the hard way when he tried telling one of them to DIAF.


Sorry they got your hopes up, but if you hadn't heard, Helicity's back.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=459247#post459247

IIRC, it was due to popular uproar by the players. So what lesson was learned?

\o/

Awesome. Hulkageddon is back. :)

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#391 - 2011-12-07 23:15:20 UTC
Oh, and to 'fix' wardecs, make it so defender can add anyone they like to wardec for low cost/free.

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Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment

Rellik B00n
Lethal Death Squad
#392 - 2011-12-08 00:18:18 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
But since people are being Wrong On The Internet, here I am.


did someone call?

on a serious note I gave you a like since you posted such a succinct synopsis of the situation in space.
[Of a request for change ask: Who Benefits?](https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=199765)
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#393 - 2011-12-08 01:10:33 UTC
Rellik B00n wrote:
Crumplecorn wrote:
But since people are being Wrong On The Internet, here I am.
did someone call?
My Forum Warrior sense was tingling.

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Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment

Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#394 - 2011-12-08 06:38:18 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
Tthere is a positive feedback loop here. Carebears join a harsh PvP game. Carebears whine en masse (in the way that only carebears can whine) that there is harshness and PvP in this harsh PvP game. CCP tone down the harshness, and reduce the PvP opportunities. Being a more 'accessible' game, more carebears join. The whining gets louder. More nerfs. It goes on and on in a never ending cycle, eventually leading to PvP being marginalised in the areas carebears inhabit.

And EVE is destroyed. All the PvPers leave. Then, because there are far fewer people playing, and because the PvE in this game is pretty boring, the PvEers leave. EVE is dead. The carebears killed it.
Spacing Cowboy
Perkone
Caldari State
#395 - 2011-12-08 07:00:21 UTC
The pvp players are not in highsec, so , nothing was lost.
And the new? Wardec rule will not efect the playerbase negative.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#396 - 2011-12-08 08:47:54 UTC
Spacing Cowboy wrote:
The pvp players are not in highsec ...

PvP players are everywhere. Thinking otherwise is to pretend that you're playing World of Warcraft in space (PvP players are only in battlegrounds and arenas ... true in WoW on the carebear servers, not true here.)
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
#397 - 2011-12-08 09:18:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Jojo Jackson
error on quote code ?? wtf ?

Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship!

Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
#398 - 2011-12-08 09:25:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Jojo Jackson
Crumplecorn wrote:

"Noob Stomping"
You might say, "noob stomping is just dumb and is bad for the game" and I would agree, but it's not an issue, since actual noobs are in NPC corps, and thus can only be suicide ganked.

"It's a sandbox"
But then, some bright spark in the back pipes up, EVE is a sandbox, so I should be able to do whatever I want.

"EVE isn't a PvP game"
Yes, it really is.

"But people want PvE"
If people really want PvE, they are in the wrong game.


Wrong!
Noob Stomping happens all day. Be it with Can flips, bait them to low/00 or scam them.

You should be able to play YOUR Sandbox? But others aren't allowed to play their Sandbox? -> AROGANT

Wrong, you can play EVE without ANY PvP. Rating, Mining, Mission running and useing the loot just to build stuff for you and your friends. That's called CO-OP and works perfectly fine in EVE!

Warong AGAIN!
EvE can be played like the old ELITE, PRIVATEER, FREELANZER without any PvP involed as it is a great Space MMO.
And MMO includes (!!!!!!!!!!!) CO-OP without any PvP!

With your words ... I should be able to play MY SANDBOX!
And my Sandbox EXCLUDE PvP by 100% !
Nuf said.

Crumplecorn wrote:
Wannabes act like the last as......... and CCP NEED tone down the harshness as this e-peen kiddys need some laws as they can't without

fixed it for you

KKTHXBYE

Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship!

Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#399 - 2011-12-08 10:07:26 UTC
Jojo Jackson wrote:
You should be able to play YOUR Sandbox? But others aren't allowed to play their Sandbox? -> AROGANT

With your words ... I should be able to play MY SANDBOX!
And my Sandbox EXCLUDE PvP by 100% !

The misconception here is that we all get our own little sandboxes. This is incorrect. EVE Online is one giant sandbox, which every player shares. If you want to try to stake out your little corner, just for yourself, then you'd better be prepared to defend it. That little section you staked off isn't actually yours, you've no inherent right to it, so if you don't defend it, be prepared when someone else comes along to kick some sand in your face.

PS Stop with the exclamation mark crimes.
Spacing Cowboy
Perkone
Caldari State
#400 - 2011-12-08 10:13:32 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Spacing Cowboy wrote:
The pvp players are not in highsec ...

PvP players are everywhere. Thinking otherwise is to pretend that you're playing World of Warcraft in space (PvP players are only in battlegrounds and arenas ... true in WoW on the carebear servers, not true here.)



I should indeed correct myself on above,
Decent / skilled pvp players are in low/wh/0.0

The one's that cant cut it in above, try to keep there epeen standing with bashing on the bears and nubs in highsec