Skill Discussions

Not even close to the same thing. If it was like the old gunnery system you would need racial frigate, destroyer, then cruiser 5 to fly a T2 cruiser. Currently you only need the base cruiser skill to 5. Just like if you want to use a T2 medium turrets you only need the base turret skill to 5.

gun size and ship size progression to III makes enough sense. it's the random support skill level V requirements that don't.

another problem with saying "because specialization" is equivocation. it's when there's more than one definition or sense of a word, and the wrong one is used to justify something.

I'm asking because it doesn't make sense, and my altered requirement/Mastery I example was an attempt to illustrate the nuance of saying "because specialization." I don't mean to accuse CCP of childishly saying "we'll only give you this if you give us three months of subs," but right now that's the only effect that I can see, and apparently I'm not the only one.

can you think of another explanation, other than an original dev setting those requirements for T2 hulls based on a simple sentiment "because better," and it has been around for so long that it's simply accepted by the devs, just like it is by players...? I can't tell.

I'm -not- trying to make things easier for anyone, and I am not a person who cares about something for the sake of noobs, or that it should be easier for them.

I've been accused of elitism for my opinion of what proper skill training means. I don't like being in fleets with people who don't have level V skills, and I am not nice to people with incomplete skills who expect me to risk expensive ships for a shared benefit. one fully skilled ship with proper fittings is equal to two or three failships, so the smart thing to do is not fly a failship. I'd like to maintain that truth. my hypothetical requirement example is just more rope for players to hang themselves.

...so please don't make exaggerations about ship class and weapon size progression, which are understandable enough as level III skills

that's false. you get "80% of the value" by training the T1 to level III or IV.

I would make a nice surface chart plotting time vs benefit compared to T1, but I'm not dying for the practice of making complicated charts, and it's not my job. nor does it matter that much to me.

as for farming, I am under the impression a lot of people have the habit of PLEXing for shinies, and they're the same people who have low SP

you know... the weapon size progression change from V to III is the same basic idea of what I think would make sense. ship class to III before having the option to train the T2 bonus, instead of requiring level V on the hull along with two or more random attributes at V. it changes nothing for the players who already have the skills

Are you saying that T2 guns shouldn't require level 5 of the T1 gun skill?

Rain, I agree with the lvl 5 prereqs being just an arbitrary timesink, and I also think what you stated here is the main reason CCP are weary of changing them at this point.

I personally wouldn't give a damn if newer players than me had an easier time training stuff, actually I'd be happy to have both more friends and more foes to play with in T2 ships.

I realize I may not be perfectly credible saying this as just a 1-year old player - but that's my honest opinion.


T2/3 ships - especially cruisers and above - are already 'limited' by their ISK cost, the player skill needed to not whelp them (including the 'meta-skill' of getting to fly with people that know what they're doing), the need to train several support skills to 4 or 5 anyway to be competitive and - regarding supers - the difficulty of manufacturing them.


I'd also like to point out that CCP do seem to have second thoughts on this - see the recent examples of Carriers (racial BS from 5 to 3) and Thermodynamics (Power Grid Mgmt from 5 to 4).

You should re-read the OP. You keep using the word specialization as if the only way to learn about something is to first read a 200 page manual rather than read the first few chapters and dive in. Specialization comes after you are able to practice and test the thing it is you are trying to learn, not before hand.

A kestrel and a manticore serve two different purposes. While you want a kestrel for fighting in a novice FW plex 10/10, you want a manticore to run FW missions 10/10.

OP never said T2 > T1, he said that a ship (any ship, be it t1 or t2) with proper fittings is equal to two or more ships with bad fits and skills.

The actual reward shouldn't be sitting in the ship, but getting the mastery to IV or V. That is specialization.

The mastery/specialization comparison still stands, and since you like using IRL examples so much, a heart or brain surgeon can both practice their studies before officially getting their title.



What basics are those? Patiently waiting?

Hey look , another IRL analogy. It's a good thing you only have to wait in EVE rather than study, practice and take tests to get the skill.

Where else are you supposed to go besides real world examples? Would you like me to use another game? In d&d you have to train several feats in a chain to specialize. In dust (though it's been ages since I played it) you train general weapon classes before specializing. How about instead of me listing 1000 places where you have to master the general before working on the specific, you give me a single example where you don't have to.

As far as waiting for the skill to learn it in eve, that's the amount of time it takes to install the skill into your brain so you don't have to practice, study, etc.