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Holy ****, Install costs in Crius
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Cyno Saraki
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1 - 2014-07-10 21:56:05 UTC
Manufacturing: baseCost x numberOfRuns
Research: Sum for each level[ baseCost x 0.02 x researchMultiplierForLevel (see table below) ]
Copying: baseCost x 0.02 x runsPerCopy x numberOfRuns
Invention + Reverse Engineering: baseCost x 0.02

Research Multipliers
Level Multiplier
1 1
2 29 / 21.0
3 23 / 7.0
4 39 / 5.0
5 278 / 15.0
6 928 / 21.0
7 2200 / 21.0
8 5251 / 21.0
9 4163 / 7.0
10 29660 / 21.0

That's all fine & dandy except for the ME 10 researching. 28.24 * base cost. OMG...

Yes it will be multiplied by the system activity but UghTwistedEvil
Cyno Saraki
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#2 - 2014-07-10 22:05:03 UTC
so at a 5% global system, ME 10 costs 28.24 * base cost * .25 = 7.06 * base cost of the product...

Now apply that magic math to ship building, esp BS & caps.
NotTheSmartestCookie
Shooting Blues Everyday
Gimme Da Loot
#3 - 2014-07-10 22:21:56 UTC
Space-poor scrubs gonna scrub

Making New Eden a better place 8 rounds of Void at a time.

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Josclyn Verreuil
Dark 0rder.
#4 - 2014-07-10 23:57:46 UTC
Cyno Saraki wrote:
so at a 5% global system, ME 10 costs 28.24 * base cost * .25 = 7.06 * base cost of the product...

Now apply that magic math to ship building, esp BS & caps.


So you'll have to make a value judgment as to whether it's worth researching to "perfect." Note that due to the way the scaling ME will work, going from 9-10 is the smallest jump across the spectrum.

More choices are good in games, I don't see what's wrong here.
Evil Brock Nelson
#5 - 2014-07-11 01:02:10 UTC
We all knew about the cost increase, guess somebody didn't read the dev blog covering this few months ago...
Kukihara Akachi
Doomheim
#6 - 2014-07-11 06:38:43 UTC
Josclyn Verreuil wrote:
due to the way the scaling ME will work, going from 9-10 is the smallest jump across the spectrum.

Actually, 9-10 is not the smallest jump across the spectrum. In some cases it's the biggest jump across the spectrum. See https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4786741#post4786741

Josclyn Verreuil wrote:
More choices are good in games, I don't see what's wrong here.

Given how botched-up the capital bpo changes are, I can easily see what's wrong with the suggested ME/PE changes.
Trin Javidan
Caymen Labs
#7 - 2014-07-12 12:00:50 UTC
How does this turn out in ISk numbers wise?
Josclyn Verreuil
Dark 0rder.
#8 - 2014-07-12 13:37:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Josclyn Verreuil
Kukihara Akachi wrote:
Josclyn Verreuil wrote:
due to the way the scaling ME will work, going from 9-10 is the smallest jump across the spectrum.

Actually, 9-10 is not the smallest jump across the spectrum. In some cases it's the biggest jump across the spectrum. See https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4786741#post4786741

Josclyn Verreuil wrote:
More choices are good in games, I don't see what's wrong here.

Given how botched-up the capital bpo changes are, I can easily see what's wrong with the suggested ME/PE changes.


Try doing 2 runs.

The only reason that happens is because it's rounding off to the nearest component. Crius is applying the ME across a batch now instead of just per run, so upping the runs is a knob you can turn to achieve better results. Notably this is true not just on capital prints, but noticable in t2 production as well. Anywhere the granularity of component cost is an issue and you're rounding unfavorably.

Again, more knobs the better. It lets people like me out-earn people like you ;)
Chuk Ormand
Alternative Solutions Corporation
#9 - 2014-07-14 14:17:19 UTC
I currently have a small POS with 3 research labs in a 0.4 system. If the new research costs are indeed expensive it might be worth keeping my labs online after Crius. Fuel costs are only 100 mil isk per month. My 2 main characters keep all the slots busy 24/7. I'm currently training all 4 alts for research and invention to assist with my tech 2 construction. I'm looking forward to Crius and have taken the attitude to make things work regardless. It's just another EVE challenge which I will embrace.

Does anyone know how the slots in a mobile lab might be changed?? Will the slots stay the same or can 1 lab be used to run all ME jobs (10 jobs my current skills allow)?? I haven't read any concrete answers yet. Time will tell...............................-chuk
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2014-07-14 15:42:09 UTC
No more manufacturing/research slots. At all. Anywhere. It's been said again and again and again, there definitely have been multiple concrete statements.
Josclyn Verreuil
Dark 0rder.
#11 - 2014-07-14 15:57:00 UTC
Elena Thiesant wrote:
No more manufacturing/research slots. At all. Anywhere. It's been said again and again and again, there definitely have been multiple concrete statements.



What she said here is completely correct.

To follow up on that though, working out of a POS *will* still require job costs in line with everywhere else, come Crius. You get a few notable benefits though:

-Huge production time bonus. Invention itself will take half the time that it will in station. ME, PE, and copying all have significant boosts as well, along with manufacturing.

-Slight ME bonus on all manufacturing

-10% less job cost than anyone in an NPC station will have

-Ability to research/produce in systems in which you otherwise could not. Smart use of this can help keep your job costs low.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#12 - 2014-07-14 16:14:49 UTC
Josclyn Verreuil wrote:
-Ability to research/produce in systems in which you otherwise could not. Smart use of this can help keep your job costs low.


Finding a good system with a low number of moons and no NPC stations with corresponding services will all but guarantee that your install costs remain very low.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#13 - 2014-07-14 21:18:01 UTC
Chuk Ormand wrote:
I currently have a small POS with 3 research labs in a 0.4 system. If the new research costs are indeed expensive it might be worth keeping my labs online after Crius. Fuel costs are only 100 mil isk per month. My 2 main characters keep all the slots busy 24/7. I'm currently training all 4 alts for research and invention to assist with my tech 2 construction. I'm looking forward to Crius and have taken the attitude to make things work regardless. It's just another EVE challenge which I will embrace.

Does anyone know how the slots in a mobile lab might be changed?? Will the slots stay the same or can 1 lab be used to run all ME jobs (10 jobs my current skills allow)?? I haven't read any concrete answers yet. Time will tell...............................-chuk

Don't forget that you will need to put the BPO's in the actual POS to work on them after the patch. You won't be able to leave them in a station anymore.

Friends
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#14 - 2014-07-14 21:39:26 UTC
Cyno Saraki wrote:
so at a 5% global system, ME 10 costs 28.24 * base cost * .25 = 7.06 * base cost of the product...

Now apply that magic math to ship building, esp BS & caps.


Let me get this straight... Getting a Charon BPO from ME 0 to ME 10 will cost 14.12 Billion isk?

Friends
Josclyn Verreuil
Dark 0rder.
#15 - 2014-07-14 22:28:23 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
Cyno Saraki wrote:
so at a 5% global system, ME 10 costs 28.24 * base cost * .25 = 7.06 * base cost of the product...

Now apply that magic math to ship building, esp BS & caps.


Let me get this straight... Getting a Charon BPO from ME 0 to ME 10 will cost 14.12 Billion isk?


Sounds possible, though I haven't run the numbers.

Try again for ME 9 though, you can get very close to perfect for significantly cheaper. This moves research closer in line with things like skills, where you can get very good at something (lvl 4) relatively quickly, but perfect (lvl 5) takes a huge increase in investment.
Cyno Saraki
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#16 - 2014-07-15 05:39:18 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
Cyno Saraki wrote:
so at a 5% global system, ME 10 costs 28.24 * base cost * .25 = 7.06 * base cost of the product...

Now apply that magic math to ship building, esp BS & caps.


Let me get this straight... Getting a Charon BPO from ME 0 to ME 10 will cost 14.12 Billion isk?


I should have clarified. 7.06 * base cost * system modifier. So lets say the system has like 5% of global production. I believe the install cost would be 7.06 * base cost * square root of .05. So about 3.5b.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#17 - 2014-07-15 06:09:27 UTC
Cyno Saraki wrote:
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
Cyno Saraki wrote:
so at a 5% global system, ME 10 costs 28.24 * base cost * .25 = 7.06 * base cost of the product...

Now apply that magic math to ship building, esp BS & caps.


Let me get this straight... Getting a Charon BPO from ME 0 to ME 10 will cost 14.12 Billion isk?


I should have clarified. 7.06 * base cost * system modifier. So lets say the system has like 5% of global production. I believe the install cost would be 7.06 * base cost * square root of .05. So about 3.5b.


Will a system have 5% of global production? That sounds like a very large number indeed. Isn't it more likely to be something like 0.5 or 0.05% of global production?
Cyno Saraki
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#18 - 2014-07-15 06:16:44 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:

Will a system have 5% of global production? That sounds like a very large number indeed. Isn't it more likely to be something like 0.5 or 0.05% of global production?


From dev blog

On that note, let's look at some examples.

Manufacturing: The largest run price we generated from the snapshot we took was 15% of build cost in Saisio. 10th place is Juunigaishi at 8%, while 50th is Kakakela at 5%. Jita is in 106th place, at 4%. The highest lowsec system is redacted at 53rd and 5%, and the highest nullsec system is redacted at 147th place and 4%.

Copying: Max is 14% in Vuorrassi, 10th is 9%, 50th is 6%, and we drop below 5% at 95th.

TE: The same numbers are 13% in Nomaa, 9%, 6%, 90th.

ME: 10% in Abudban, 7%, 5%, 79th.

Invention: 12% in Nomaa, 9%, 7%, 119th.

Reverse Engineering: 35% in Droselory, 17%, 6%, and there are sufficiently few systems doing reverse engineering when the snapshot was taken that the bottom one is still above 5% of output value.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#19 - 2014-07-15 10:19:34 UTC
Sure now, but when people start spreading out and more industry is done in null I expect those hot-spots will disappear, especially given the costs. I think 1% will be quite high for any given system. It's still a massive whack of ISK to shell out so I expect prices to go up quite a lot.
Andrew Indy
Cleaning Crew
#20 - 2014-07-16 08:21:08 UTC
Cap BPOs will be crazy expensive to do anything with.

Too bad my Archon will only hit 9ME just after the patch.
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