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Crime & Punishment

 
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CODE Minerbumping query

Author
Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#61 - 2014-07-13 13:48:54 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:
"We didn't want to gank those miners anyway"

Dude, come the **** on...


The point of the Code is to get people to actually play Eve instead of letting their computer play it for them, those people were actually playing Eve. We had some fun banter with them in local flew around each other in the ice belt and all in all everyone had a more exciting and interesting night than they would have otherwise. We created content for the whole system that night. If you don't think that's a victory for the New Order then I think you've misunderstood something.

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.

Voyager Arran
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#62 - 2014-07-13 20:34:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Voyager Arran
Those ganking ops were usually just me in an ECCM fit Catalyst (the ECCM was originally added after I got jammed by faction police, though it is rather helpful against vigilantes as well) and a market alt with just enough skills to use a passive targeter and a ship scanner. I would occasionally team up with someone else I saw flashing in local and there was one time when my market alt pulled a pair of newbies with one week of game time in between them out of NPC Corp Chat to help me kill a poorly-tanked Mackinaw with a deadspace hardener that I couldn't quite solo. It dropped, I let them split the loot, and they walked off with ~30 mil each. As an added bonus, we later ganked a Retriever who turned out to be some piloted by a self-declared'bank mogul'. He threw a pile of bounties on all of us and spent the rest of the evening chasing us around in a 500 mil isk Dramiel without ever catching any of us or interfering with any ganks (the dude was pretty much WhiteKnights.txt)

I don't do much ganking anymore, in part because Otela seems to have dried up for solo Hulks and in part because I've spent the last year on a laptop that can't dual box. Ganking out of an RvB staging system certainly added some entertainment to the experience, and I did learn not to **** with anyone in a belt with the Astral Scorpion. That said, I'm back on my real computer now and I've still got some Catalysts and a clone full of gunnery implants in that station, so maybe it's time to see if the prey has repopulated.

Credit where it's due; the Otela dudes did have the most effective gank defenses I've seen. Fleets of Skiffs with a Scorpion sitting on top of them are not very tempting as targets. It's not always enough to save the dude next to you in an untanked Mackinaw, but you did make me work for it good bit.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#63 - 2014-07-14 17:18:43 UTC  |  Edited by: BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Handar Turiant wrote:
How about you go look at minerbumping.com for your evidence......

For a diplomat you sure are poor at getting your own politicians in line. Your glorious leader of the revolution just posted a gleeful post about agents popping a 1 month old charachter in a venture, with the agent then following the person into Star Craft 2 to grief them there some more.

As stated above, if the permit would actually mean anything, you could really grow CODE into something.

One month old character dies? OH NO! STOP THE PRESSES! They targeted that player because he was streaming. They didn't gank him in a starter system, and as you said, he had been playing the game for a month. Hardly an example of deliberately targeting new players.

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Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2014-07-14 19:15:30 UTC
I think a month is enough to get familiar with the gist of hisec mining hazards. I was clueless about the danger for a couple weeks but it's pretty hard to ignore a growing body of information..

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.

Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2014-07-14 19:35:12 UTC
Erica Dusette wrote:
A concept I've wondered about once or twice too.

If CODE actually attempted to provide some form of protection to it's permit holders, as well as immunity to CODE pilot ganks, then it would add a ton of legitimacy to the organization and give it more of a tough-love/educational vibe rather than purely a ganky one.

I think it would remove legitimacy from the organization. If you read James's manifesto it essentially describes a long term hazard to the game if an ISK faucet is allowed to be tapped more or less afk. The speculation about the market may be a bit of exaggerated doom and gloom but I think the concern that afk farming breeds a culture of entitlement isn't far off the mark.

Right now there is a heated debate in many corners about hisec ganking and griefing. What comes as part of these arguments is a debate on how insulated or connected a hisec pilot should be to the hazards of his environment. Should resources be contested? My belief is "always, yes". And if CODE is Darwinism for miners who don't care to be forewarned and forearmed about dangers, or even for me if I'm feeling particularly lazy or uncreative, then so be it.

It would be disingenuous to turn the manifesto into a protection racket (which it's not because James doesn't need the money).

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.

Ria Nieyli
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#66 - 2014-07-14 19:51:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Ria Nieyli
Tengu Grib wrote:
Ria Nieyli wrote:
"We didn't want to gank those miners anyway"

Dude, come the **** on...


The point of the Code is to get people to actually play Eve instead of letting their computer play it for them, those people were actually playing Eve. We had some fun banter with them in local flew around each other in the ice belt and all in all everyone had a more exciting and interesting night than they would have otherwise. We created content for the whole system that night. If you don't think that's a victory for the New Order then I think you've misunderstood something.


The thing is that I think that the Code is a good idea. However, the execution falls a tiny smidge of short, wasting the potential of what could have been. And then I read stuff like what you wrote there...

Sibyyl wrote:
Erica Dusette wrote:
A concept I've wondered about once or twice too.

If CODE actually attempted to provide some form of protection to it's permit holders, as well as immunity to CODE pilot ganks, then it would add a ton of legitimacy to the organization and give it more of a tough-love/educational vibe rather than purely a ganky one.

I think it would remove legitimacy from the organization. If you read James's manifesto it essentially describes a long term hazard to the game if an ISK faucet is allowed to be tapped more or less afk. The speculation about the market may be a bit of exaggerated doom and gloom but I think the concern that afk farming breeds a culture of entitlement isn't far off the mark.

Right now there is a heated debate in many corners about hisec ganking and griefing. What comes as part of these arguments is a debate on how insulated or connected a hisec pilot should be to the hazards of his environment. Should resources be contested? My belief is "always, yes". And if CODE is Darwinism for miners who don't care to be forewarned and forearmed about dangers, or even for me if I'm feeling particularly lazy or uncreative, then so be it.

It would be disingenuous to turn the manifesto into a protection racket (which it's not because James doesn't need the money).


Tut tut, mining is not an isk faucet.

As for the protection racket, it's not. It's a labour union, but people are going sideways about it, so it's experiencing a stunted growth.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2014-07-14 20:10:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Sibyyl
^^In times of strikes, a labor union turns into a protection racket.. turning hostile to employees who don't belong. Outside of a strike a labor union provides protection from external entities (ie, the employer).

Labor unions typically aren't meritocracies and are more socialist (protect the group as a whole) in their application than free market (business and labor entities make their own choices).

I don't think the analogy applies at all.

If mining is not an ISK faucet, what would it be.. a sink?

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.

Ria Nieyli
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#68 - 2014-07-14 20:18:33 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
^^In times of strikes, a labor union turns into a protection racket.. turning hostile to employees who don't belong. Outside of a strike a labor union provides protection from external entities (ie, the employer).

Labor unions typically aren't meritocracies and are more socialist (protect the group as a whole) in their application than free market (business and labor entities make their own choices).

I don't think the analogy applies at all.

If mining is not an ISK faucet, what would it be.. a sink?


Yes, exactly. The more people get their mining disrupted, the more profitable mining would be for the ones that don't suffer from the disruption.

And technically, it can be an isk sink due to associated broker fees and sales taxes on the market, but in its essence it creates a commodity that is then traded for isk that already exists in some players' wallets, unlike ratting which just injects isk straight into your wallet out of thin air.
MPaladin
Omega Dawn Corp
#69 - 2014-07-14 20:38:54 UTC
Christo Severasse wrote:
I would less likely buy a permit from code than get in a cage with Siegfried and Roy's tiger whilst wearing a bacon suit.
I do not recognise you law or your self proclaimed authority.
You cannot own high sec any more than you can own the sky.
I don't care what lists I'm on or off for i am a free man and bend my knee to no one, least of all some morally bankrupt psychopaths.
I mine where I want, I hack where I want, I go wherever I choose in this galaxy.
You can kill me, if you can catch me.
Good luck!

P.s. thanks for the content!


Disclaimer: This posting is from a in character point of view.

Ditto, I too do not recognize the authority of these cretins either. The easiest way to stop them is to quit paying the fees and refuse to being bullied into paying them.
Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#70 - 2014-07-14 20:51:14 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
^^In times of strikes, a labor union turns into a protection racket.. turning hostile to employees who don't belong. Outside of a strike a labor union provides protection from external entities (ie, the employer).

Labor unions typically aren't meritocracies and are more socialist (protect the group as a whole) in their application than free market (business and labor entities make their own choices).

I don't think the analogy applies at all.

If mining is not an ISK faucet, what would it be.. a sink?


It's not an isk faucet, you don't get any money for mining. You get minerals which you can trade to other people in exchange for isk, but the isk comes from elsewhere, not the mining. Isk faucets are things like mission rewards, npc bounties, and incursions. Making you money doesn't make it an isk faucet.

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.

Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2014-07-14 21:04:30 UTC
^^ ok, I stand corrected.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#72 - 2014-07-14 21:16:23 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
^^ ok, I stand corrected.


Mineral inflation on the other hand...

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Ria Nieyli
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#73 - 2014-07-14 21:17:05 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:
^^ ok, I stand corrected.


Mineral inflation on the other hand...


Just wait till Crius, oh boy oh boy oh boy
Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#74 - 2014-07-14 21:19:09 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:
^^ ok, I stand corrected.


Mineral inflation on the other hand...


Just wait till Crius, oh boy oh boy oh boy


I don't even know what to expect lol. It should be awesome though. Change is good.

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.

Handar Turiant
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2014-07-15 12:11:00 UTC
Tengu Grib wrote:
Ria Nieyli wrote:
"We didn't want to gank those miners anyway"

Dude, come the **** on...


The point of the Code is to get people to actually play Eve instead of letting their computer play it for them, those people were actually playing Eve. We had some fun banter with them in local flew around each other in the ice belt and all in all everyone had a more exciting and interesting night than they would have otherwise. We created content for the whole system that night. If you don't think that's a victory for the New Order then I think you've misunderstood something.


Anecdotal examples are argumentative fallacies. One of them does not make it a valid point on the Order as a whole.

As regards letting the computer play..... how about the Code go ganks people multiboxing Tengu or Bomber fleets. If that's not a prime example of letting the computer play, I don't know what is. If the holy aim of the group is to 'stop letting the computer play', then why is a reason for ganking in your Code Violation emails not having a bumpersticker denoting adherence to the Code?

CODE is of course free to gank whomever they want, but this holier than thou 'Crusade' as the saviour of Eve is starting look exceedingly like old fashioned trolling with a very disingenuous veneer of 'making eve better'.

I've recently been in contact with the CODE diplomats, asking where I can report actual bot miners (you across them in belts quite often) in groups of alts with the same name, but nothing ever comes back other than the CODE faq channel, which is a vacuum. It's suggested 'people are listening' there. If the RP and Content side of CODE where the least bit sincere, one would be wise to take such things seriously: that way one would actually feel useful scouting out botters for you guys and genuinely make eve better.

Be that as it may, mining is HELLA dull. When you're scanning, you have multiple screens up and are looking at data: this is not letting the computer play of course, so your statement does not ring true, again.

I realize this is of course just a fart in the wind. I'm slowly turning to the opinion that your content is just trolling, which is viable in New Eden.

So let me finish with: take yourselves more serious, and really get into the reporting and offing of true bot miners. Not just the people scanning or the people who are a month old.
Handar Turiant
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2014-07-15 12:16:16 UTC
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:
Handar Turiant wrote:
How about you go look at minerbumping.com for your evidence......

For a diplomat you sure are poor at getting your own politicians in line. Your glorious leader of the revolution just posted a gleeful post about agents popping a 1 month old charachter in a venture, with the agent then following the person into Star Craft 2 to grief them there some more.

As stated above, if the permit would actually mean anything, you could really grow CODE into something.

One month old character dies? OH NO! STOP THE PRESSES! They targeted that player because he was streaming. They didn't gank him in a starter system, and as you said, he had been playing the game for a month. Hardly an example of deliberately targeting new players.



I'm sorry? When did a schism take place within the hallowed gardens of the Code that denoted streaming as a violation of your sanctimonious bible of new HighSec? Does James315's HighSec extend to StarCraft 2?

These new orders from our most hallowed leader must be studied and observed!

It would be interesting, content-wise, to read a new testament on minerbumping.com as to how James315 has now incorporated these new commandments into the Eve Mormon faith.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#77 - 2014-07-15 18:18:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Cidanel Afuran
From what I can tell (as a very new player), isn't this just an obvious extortion scheme?

I mean, good for them if they can get away with it...
Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#78 - 2014-07-15 18:25:05 UTC
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
That didn't hit the point behind New Order at all. The point of an extortion scheme is to make money, not to 'impose order'. Obviously anyone involved in the scheme is going to vocally support it.

That being said, I don't mine and am not in high sec, so if New Order can get away with this kind of scam, go right ahead, just don't pretend it isn't a scam.


I haven't made money ganking for the New Order, I occasionally get lucky with loot drops which offsets costs, but I'm certainly not making money. The vast majority of New Order agents are the same.

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.

Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#79 - 2014-07-15 18:28:38 UTC
Tengu Grib wrote:
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
That didn't hit the point behind New Order at all. The point of an extortion scheme is to make money, not to 'impose order'. Obviously anyone involved in the scheme is going to vocally support it.

That being said, I don't mine and am not in high sec, so if New Order can get away with this kind of scam, go right ahead, just don't pretend it isn't a scam.


I haven't made money ganking for the New Order, I occasionally get lucky with loot drops which offsets costs, but I'm certainly not making money. The vast majority of New Order agents are the same.


I edited my post just because I didn't want it to seem like I was saying anything bad about New Order. It just screams 'extortion scheme' to me. Again, I am all for it. Seems like a great way for people to play. Not my thing, but the fact that stuff like this can exist is part of what makes this a good game.

I am also highly suspect of anyone who claims to not make money doing what they do, but that is my paranoia bleeding through Big smile
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#80 - 2014-07-15 18:34:33 UTC  |  Edited by: BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Handar Turiant wrote:
I'm sorry? When did a schism take place within the hallowed gardens of the Code that denoted streaming as a violation of your sanctimonious bible of new HighSec? Does James315's HighSec extend to StarCraft 2?

These new orders from our most hallowed leader must be studied and observed!

It would be interesting, content-wise, to read a new testament on minerbumping.com as to how James315 has now incorporated these new commandments into the Eve Mormon faith.

Do the words "publicity stunt" mean anything to you?

Cidanel Afuran wrote:
I edited my post just because I didn't want it to seem like I was saying anything bad about New Order. It just screams 'extortion scheme' to me. Again, I am all for it. Seems like a great way for people to play. Not my thing, but the fact that stuff like this can exist is part of what makes this a good game.

I am also highly suspect of anyone who claims to not make money doing what they do, but that is my paranoia bleeding through Big smile

Keep in mind that some gankers don't ask for ship reimbursements on their catalysts. I didn't while I was in NODD. Its pretty difficult to turn a profit that way because of how rare good drops are off of mining ships. The gankers that do get reimbursements make around 10 mill per gank between module drops and blue loot. This translates into 20-40 million an hour, usually on the lower end of that unless they're in a really active system.

Fleet ganks (orcas and freighters, or smartbomb ganks) have no isk effect on the gankers in them except for whoever runs the fleet. All profits are rolled into more gank ships, and the number of empty freighters we gank keeps us from profiting too much. Usually there's five or so empty freighters (1-2 bill in gank ships lost), and then one that drops a bunch of loot to pay for the next 5-10 ganks. Since joining the new order I'm down around 1.5 billion between my own catalysts, an orca for transporting, and helping finance a smartbomb gank that I wasn't involved in. My net profits from ganking are around 5 mill because I'm not usually the one to scoop loot.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!