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Reduce the ridiculous SP requirements for Command Ships.
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Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2014-07-13 18:03:17 UTC
Rowells wrote:
people tried the same argument when they re did carrier skills.

"I dont want to train JDO to V and JDC to IV, I'm never gonna use them!"

If you want a ship that has a role as a booster it is completely reasonable to expect to train those skills. I could easily argue to get rid of Jump Portal generation from training a titan because i dont necessarily have to use it.


The thing about those skills is they might indeed be absolutely worthless. Capitals in wormholes are 100% guaranteed to never need JDO and JDC under any circumstances, this isn't true of even the link skills or the jump portal.
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#42 - 2014-07-13 18:11:41 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
87 days to put one of my alts into a command ship, and al with onlu spaceship command 3 met on prereqs. This is not, in any way, a massive time sink. For a game where people routinely create training plans that measure into years, this is pretty quick.

Here's a compilation of the effects of a command ship:
10% targeting speed boost
10% targeting range boost
10% shield HP
10% armor HP
10% agility

The above is just from having you assigned booster, and applies to everyone under you. This is also befors you put any links on the ship. Combine all this with a bit of firepower and good tanking and I see no problems at all with this ship taking less that 3 months to sit in, especially when the above boosts don't require you to leave the POS to turn them on.

Command ships are fine as they are. They fit their role perfectly.


you say as if you need the command ship to give out these bonuses and that is not true, i can give these bonuses (if i have the skills) in a rookie ship. and when you use links there are added bonuses on top of this and even more with implants.

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]
Saelem Black
Cog Banking
#43 - 2014-07-13 18:52:34 UTC
I don't really have a dog (slaver hound?) in this fight, but looking at CSs, they do seem a bit ridiculous in training time.

My thought is that rather than having the Command ships skill require so many secondary skills, just make require leadership V, spaceship command V, and warfare link specialist IV Then have additional secondary skills for each hull, whatever the racial boosts are. For example the nighthawk would require:

Caldari Battlecruiser V
-Spaceship Command III
-Caldari Cruiser III
---Spaceship Command II
---Caldari Destroyer III
-----Caldari Frigate III
-------Spaceship Command I

Command ships I
-Warfare link specialist IV
---Leadership V
-Leadership V
-Spaceship Command V

Siege Warfare V
-Leadership I

Information Warfare V
-Leadership I

This seems a bit more appropriate for the functions that each ship are supposed to fulfill.
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2014-07-13 18:59:50 UTC
Command ships are fine as they are.

If you want to propose something, a class of T2 battle cruisers that are not link oriented would probably be better received.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2014-07-13 19:35:59 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Rowells wrote:
people tried the same argument when they re did carrier skills.

"I dont want to train JDO to V and JDC to IV, I'm never gonna use them!"

If you want a ship that has a role as a booster it is completely reasonable to expect to train those skills. I could easily argue to get rid of Jump Portal generation from training a titan because i dont necessarily have to use it.


The thing about those skills is they might indeed be absolutely worthless. Capitals in wormholes are 100% guaranteed to never need JDO and JDC under any circumstances, this isn't true of even the link skills or the jump portal.

So are you arguing we reduce the skill prereqs of any ship that is not necessary to just sit in the ship hull? Just skip over the support skills and make it just ship piloting skills? That seems to be the path of logic your argument is taking. Might as well remove drone skills and jump skills from carrier prereqs. Get rid of electronic upgrades for covert ops, remove long range targeting from ewar frigs, see where the pattern is?

It doesn't matter if YOU will use it, what matters is the primary role it will fill, regardless of what you do with it. It's similar to how ships have stat bonuses. You cant argue that the ishtar needs to have reduced skill prereqs because you are going to mine with it.

It's primary bonuses and skill reqs reflect the primary purpose of the ship. Take it out of that design and you have to accept that it may not fit your needs exactly.
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#46 - 2014-07-13 19:58:38 UTC
De'Veldrin wrote:
Command ships are fine as they are.



Not really.
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#47 - 2014-07-13 20:09:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Fer'isam K'ahn
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Not really.

They work so far, are used and appreciated, they have proven themselves and have their purpose and implementation, their investment and reward.
You and others coming along saying 'not really' and leaving it at that are trying to shift the burdon of prove. You have to prove that it is not so, you are making the claim that something is off and the suggestion a valid solution.
We don't, all we have to do looking at that is to say 'No'. Explaining it from our side over and over again is kind of a courtesy. /me acting a bit condescending and snobbish /some roleplay never hurt Blink
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#48 - 2014-07-13 20:39:53 UTC
I think people would have a lot less of a problem with the long train into command ships if they could at least have a choice for something else to skill in.

But nope, with command ships it's either suffering through these skills or not flying any T2-battlecruiser at all.

Because of this, even though I like some of the battlecruisers, I won't even bother training any of them past level 4. Why should I? the battlecruisers I like most don't even have T2-versions.

So will I take a Ferox into LowSec to see how much damage I can do before even a medium jump drive can't save me anymore? Yes, I will.

Would I take a command ship around? Maybe in about three years. That's how far down the necessary skills are on my personal list. Having some kind of T2-battlecruiser with more combat oriented skills needed would be nice, but too bad, they don't exist.

With the last batch of ships slowly coming into focus for a balance pass, why not take the chance and introduce T2 battlecruisers who can actually be battlecruisers, instead of glorified fleet HQs?
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#49 - 2014-07-13 20:53:05 UTC
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Not really.

They work so far, are used and appreciated, they have proven themselves and have their purpose and implementation, their investment and reward.
You and others coming along saying 'not really' and leaving it at that are trying to shift the burdon of prove. You have to prove that it is not so, you are making the claim that something is off and the suggestion a valid solution.
We don't, all we have to do looking at that is to say 'No'. Explaining it from our side over and over again is kind of a courtesy. /me acting a bit condescending and snobbish /some roleplay never hurt Blink

I've already laid down my posts arguing why the change is required. Burden of proof and all that.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#50 - 2014-07-13 20:54:34 UTC
Having trained Three pilots to Command Ship 5 and all applicable link skill to T2, I can say I would be massively pissed if they started giving the ship away to every Tom, Richard and Harry that felt they deserved it because they paid for 1 month of EVE.

The skill tree is fine, the expectation of a 'Win Button' is the problem. You want to win you need to train and play.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#51 - 2014-07-13 21:06:30 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:
Having trained Three pilots to Command Ship 5 and all applicable link skill to T2, I can say I would be massively pissed if they started giving the ship away to every Tom, Richard and Harry that felt they deserved it because they paid for 1 month of EVE.

The skill tree is fine, the expectation of a 'Win Button' is the problem. You want to win you need to train and play.


Sitting around waiting for skills to finish isn't playing. If you take pleasure from "playing" skill queue online, you need help.

That said, if slashing the skill requirements for command ships leads to people being massively pissed and throwing a temper tantrum, then I'm suddenly for it.

Douchemeisters getting upset about stupid nonsense is like real-life comedy.

But getting more T2 battlecruisers would still be better, of course. Lol
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#52 - 2014-07-13 21:07:29 UTC
Xequecal wrote:


I don't really understand the rationale behind lowering the timesink for capital ships so much


Some capital ships.

I've been training a Rorqual pilot for over two years and I'm not close to finished. I'd easily have four races of nice Command Ships done in that amount of time. At least you can use CS skills for other things while you are training them. Not so much with a Rorq.

Mr Epeen Cool
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#53 - 2014-07-13 21:15:26 UTC
Owen Levanth wrote:
Goldiiee wrote:
Having trained Three pilots to Command Ship 5 and all applicable link skill to T2, I can say I would be massively pissed if they started giving the ship away to every Tom, Richard and Harry that felt they deserved it because they paid for 1 month of EVE.

The skill tree is fine, the expectation of a 'Win Button' is the problem. You want to win you need to train and play.


Sitting around waiting for skills to finish isn't playing. If you take pleasure from "playing" skill queue online, you need help.

That said, if slashing the skill requirements for command ships leads to people being massively pissed and throwing a temper tantrum, then I'm suddenly for it.

Douchemeisters getting upset about stupid nonsense is like real-life comedy.

But getting more T2 battlecruisers would still be better, of course. Lol

Why sit around doing nothing? Set the training and play the game.

And yes, after training the command links and getting the full potential out of the ships and fleet bonuses, if they suddenly dropped the prerequisites to accommodate whiners in forum threads that want to fly the ship because they only want to train for the part of the ship they like, I would be pissed.

So in short; You want the best part of the ship without doing what everyone else that wanted it has done, quit whining and set a damn training queue.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#54 - 2014-07-13 21:26:14 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:
Owen Levanth wrote:
Goldiiee wrote:
Having trained Three pilots to Command Ship 5 and all applicable link skill to T2, I can say I would be massively pissed if they started giving the ship away to every Tom, Richard and Harry that felt they deserved it because they paid for 1 month of EVE.

The skill tree is fine, the expectation of a 'Win Button' is the problem. You want to win you need to train and play.


Sitting around waiting for skills to finish isn't playing. If you take pleasure from "playing" skill queue online, you need help.

That said, if slashing the skill requirements for command ships leads to people being massively pissed and throwing a temper tantrum, then I'm suddenly for it.

Douchemeisters getting upset about stupid nonsense is like real-life comedy.

But getting more T2 battlecruisers would still be better, of course. Lol

Why sit around doing nothing? Set the training and play the game.

And yes, after training the command links and getting the full potential out of the ships and fleet bonuses, if they suddenly dropped the prerequisites to accommodate whiners in forum threads that want to fly the ship because they only want to train for the part of the ship they like, I would be pissed.

So in short; You want the best part of the ship without doing what everyone else that wanted it has done, quit whining and set a damn training queue.


I don't give a rat's ass for the command ships and their role, my personal problem here is with not having T2-battlecruisers for the roles I like.

Luckily this does mean I won't have to set the training to train skills I don't want.
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#55 - 2014-07-13 21:31:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Fer'isam K'ahn
This is getting from silly to stupid


Owen Levanth wrote:
I don't give a rat's ass for the command ships and their role, my personal problem here is with not having T2-battlecruisers for the roles I like.

Luckily this does mean I won't have to set the training to train skills I don't want.

And your are on the fast lain right past the discussion, what are you doing here and not in a "New Combat T2 Battlecruiser" suggestion thread ??? Thank you for not participating, you are having a completely different argument with none of us...
Mario Putzo
#56 - 2014-07-13 21:38:52 UTC
They need to kill off grid boosting. Then you will see people using Command Ships in fleets. They do already, but they sit outside a station or near a pos.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#57 - 2014-07-13 22:05:12 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
They need to kill off grid boosting. Then you will see people using Command Ships in fleets. They do already, but they sit outside a station or near a pos.


Not all of us, But your right the majority sit in boredom feeling only slightly more or less useful than titans and Jump Bridges..

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#58 - 2014-07-13 22:33:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Fer'isam K'ahn
Mario Putzo wrote:
They need to kill off grid boosting. Then you will see people using Command Ships in fleets. They do already, but they sit outside a station or near a pos.

Another great not on topic post +++

xxxxxxxx edit: I am gone, this was not worth to begin with, have fun guys.
Cyno Saraki
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#59 - 2014-07-13 23:21:26 UTC
The op is right, b4 the BC skill split, I made sure to train CS 1 across all my accts due to the imba buff. Forcing new players to train racial BC V + all the leadership ones is brutal compared to the previous way.
Cyno Saraki
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#60 - 2014-07-13 23:23:31 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:

Not all of us, But your right the majority sit in boredom feeling only slightly more or less useful than titans and Jump Bridges..


Dunno about you & ur's but most if not all the time, the booster is an alt of some1 on grid.