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Lack of a high end caldari rail platform

Author
Saelem Black
Cog Banking
#1 - 2014-07-11 19:56:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Saelem Black
I've been thinking about this as a gun focused caldari player. There seems to be a lack of upper end gunboats for caldari players ala the merlin ship line.

For missiles we have, kestrel -> corax -> caracal -> drake -> raven -> CNR\Golem\SNI\Widow
For rails we have merlin -> cormorant -> moa -> ferox -> rokh/naga

There isn't any top tier for caldari rail users. All of caldari high end is missiles, CNR, SNI, Golem, Widow, Rattlesnake, Barghest. The only thing even remotely applicable is the nightmare, but that requires an entire different turret family. I'd like to see a proper rail specialized faction\tech2 BS.

Maybe repurpose the SNI, since it doesn't seem to be used much, especially in comparison to the CNR.
10% to large hybrid optimal range level
10% to large hybrid damage per level

6 highs, 6 turrets
8 mids
6 lows

Thoughts?

Edit: The more I think about it, the more it makes sense.
Looking at faction battleships:
Minmatar; fleet phoon, fleet tempest. fleet phoon can be used well with missiles.
Gallente; navy domi, navy mega, navy domi uses drones
Amarr; admittedly, the navy amarr BSs are both lasers, but the bhaal and nestor don't require much more skills and both offer a suped up facet of the geddon. Both SOE and Blood ships rely principally on amarr support skills.
Caldari, SNI and CNR are both missile boats, Barg and Rattler, are both missile boats, Nightmare relies heavily on amarr skills with the turrets. There is no large faction/T2 rail platform.
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#2 - 2014-07-11 20:21:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrified
Saelem Black wrote:
I've been thinking about this as a gun focused caldari player. There seems to be a lack of upper end gunboats for caldari players ala the merlin ship line.

For missiles we have, kestrel -> corax -> caracal -> drake -> raven -> CNR\Golem\SNI\Widow
For rails we have merlin -> cormorant -> moa -> ferox -> rokh/naga

There isn't any top tier for caldari rail users. All of caldari high end is missiles, CNR, SNI, Golem, Widow, Rattlesnake, Barghest. The only thing even remotely applicable is the nightmare, but that requires an entire different turret family. I'd like to see a proper rail specialized faction\tech2 BS.

Maybe repurpose the SNI, since it doesn't seem to be used much, especially in comparison to the CNR.
10% to large hybrid optimal range level
10% to large hybrid damage per level

6 highs, 6 turrets
8 mids
6 lows

Thoughts?

Eagle? sniping rail cruiser.
Tengu? Rail fittings are possible
But in terms of tech II sniping boats there is a lack of Battleships in that field (the Golem and Widow are more missile boats)

edit: A Tech II Rail BS would be interesting. Marauder Class Rokh, maybe?

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Mazzara
Band of the Red Sun
#3 - 2014-07-11 20:22:40 UTC
I like any idea that brings more ships into the game
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XxRTEKxX
Drunken Beaver Mining
Gnawthority
#4 - 2014-07-11 20:22:56 UTC
Tier 3 faction ships would be cool.I'd like to see a Navy Rokh, Navy Hyperion, RF Maelstrom and Navy Abaddon.
Grenn Putubi
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2014-07-11 20:28:37 UTC
The Rohk isn't 'top tier'?

To be fair, I've always thought of hybrid turrets being a backup weapon system for the Caldari similar to how the Minmatar treat missiles. Every race has 2 weapons and 1 they favor more than the other. For the Minmatar it's Projectiles and Missiles, Amarr have Lasers and Drones, Gallente have Hybrids and Drones, and Caldari have Missiles and Hybrids.

Do you want the Minmatar to get a new 'top tier' missile boat? Amarr to get a new Drone ship?
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#6 - 2014-07-11 21:18:24 UTC
XxRTEKxX wrote:
Tier 3 faction ships would be cool.I'd like to see a Navy Rokh, Navy Hyperion, RF Maelstrom and Navy Abaddon.

Would like.

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Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2014-07-11 21:27:05 UTC
The Vulture is arguably one of the best high end fleet ships in the game right now.
Saelem Black
Cog Banking
#8 - 2014-07-11 22:06:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Saelem Black
Grenn Putubi wrote:
The Rohk isn't 'top tier'?

To be fair, I've always thought of hybrid turrets being a backup weapon system for the Caldari similar to how the Minmatar treat missiles. Every race has 2 weapons and 1 they favor more than the other. For the Minmatar it's Projectiles and Missiles, Amarr have Lasers and Drones, Gallente have Hybrids and Drones, and Caldari have Missiles and Hybrids.

Do you want the Minmatar to get a new 'top tier' missile boat? Amarr to get a new Drone ship?



No, the Rokh isn't top tier. Compare it to the damage and flexibility of the navy raven, paladin, fleet typhoon, etc. It loses on damage AND tank compared to all of those by significant margins. A rail Rokh caps out its damage around 800, which despite the range advantage, is low enough to hinder it in many pvp settings, and most pve settings.

A second argument I would make is that neither gallente nor caldari have the complete hybrid weapon systems on their own. Take a look at trends in racial bonuses:

10% in laser cap consumption --> a must for laser platforms, ships require extensive cap mods/boosters without the bonus, functions well for both beams and pulses.
7.5% in falloff --> clearly meant for projectiles that operate principally in falloff. Falloff bonus directly translates to increased functional dps for BOTH auto and arty, and so falloff bonuses are very important to projectile ships.

Now lets look at hybrids.
7.5% tracking --> a must for blaster platforms, especially large ones who have to deal with high transversals at close range. This bonus is literally is what makes large blasters work in pvp. The most popular blaster boats all have tracking bonuses, however, there isn't a single caldari gunboat that has a tracking bonus.

10% optimal range --> clearly meant for railguns, as range is the other way to deal with tracking issues. Admittedly, this isn't as essential as blasters and tracking bonuses, but 10% optimal is nearly useless on blasters, and 7.5% tracking is nearly useless on rails. (Generally speaking, I know people in their null neutron nagas will throw a fit, but...)

I also agree that there are a lot of decent medium rail ships. Tengu, eagle, and vulture are all good choices. But they're all still medium. They don't have the raw damage, alpha, or falloff of large rails, even if double optimal bonused medium start to get to large rail territory.
Komodo Askold
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#9 - 2014-07-11 22:11:35 UTC
I'd like to see more railgun options for the Caldari too, but since they're their secondary weapon choice, all other Empires should also get something similar with their secondaries. I'd love to see, for example, a railgun Golem or Phoenix, but that would also need to mean drone Moros and Paladin, and missile Naglfar, for example (otherwise it wouldn't be fair).

That would be quite difficult to implement and would require a good amount of rebalancing. However, other options do exist, like rebalancing the T3 cruisers so that each one and each of their subsystems becomes equally viable, so we get, along other neat things, a good railgun Tengu.
Saelem Black
Cog Banking
#10 - 2014-07-11 22:40:18 UTC
Komodo Askold wrote:
I'd like to see more railgun options for the Caldari too, but since they're their secondary weapon choice, all other Empires should also get something similar with their secondaries. I'd love to see, for example, a railgun Golem or Phoenix, but that would also need to mean drone Moros and Paladin, and missile Naglfar, for example (otherwise it wouldn't be fair).

That would be quite difficult to implement and would require a good amount of rebalancing. However, other options do exist, like rebalancing the T3 cruisers so that each one and each of their subsystems becomes equally viable, so we get, along other neat things, a good railgun Tengu.



I'm not sure all that effort is really required.
Federation Navy dominix already exists
Republic Fleet typhoon already exists
Amarr is admittedly more difficult, but considering that the blood raiders and SOE ships require negligibly more skills then just default amarr, they still have good BS level drone and neut options available.
Then caldari.... nothing.
Grenn Putubi
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2014-07-11 22:47:42 UTC
Considering there's still no Minmatar/Caldari faction that could end up being exactly what you're looking for, but there's no telling when that'll happen
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#12 - 2014-07-11 23:05:49 UTC
Saelem Black wrote:
I've been thinking about this as a gun focused caldari player. There seems to be a lack of upper end gunboats for caldari players ala the merlin ship line.

For missiles we have, kestrel -> corax -> caracal -> drake -> raven -> CNR\Golem\SNI\Widow
For rails we have merlin -> cormorant -> moa -> ferox -> rokh/naga

There isn't any top tier for caldari rail users. All of caldari high end is missiles, CNR, SNI, Golem, Widow, Rattlesnake, Barghest. The only thing even remotely applicable is the nightmare, but that requires an entire different turret family. I'd like to see a proper rail specialized faction\tech2 BS.

Maybe repurpose the SNI, since it doesn't seem to be used much, especially in comparison to the CNR.
10% to large hybrid optimal range level
10% to large hybrid damage per level

6 highs, 6 turrets
8 mids
6 lows

Thoughts?


Caldari are meant to be predominantly missile users with rails as a secondary weapon system, the current ship line up reflects that so everything seems to be fine.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...

Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied
#13 - 2014-07-11 23:41:54 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Saelem Black wrote:
I've been thinking about this as a gun focused caldari player. There seems to be a lack of upper end gunboats for caldari players ala the merlin ship line.

For missiles we have, kestrel -> corax -> caracal -> drake -> raven -> CNR\Golem\SNI\Widow
For rails we have merlin -> cormorant -> moa -> ferox -> rokh/naga

There isn't any top tier for caldari rail users. All of caldari high end is missiles, CNR, SNI, Golem, Widow, Rattlesnake, Barghest. The only thing even remotely applicable is the nightmare, but that requires an entire different turret family. I'd like to see a proper rail specialized faction\tech2 BS.

Maybe repurpose the SNI, since it doesn't seem to be used much, especially in comparison to the CNR.
10% to large hybrid optimal range level
10% to large hybrid damage per level

6 highs, 6 turrets
8 mids
6 lows

Thoughts?


Caldari are meant to be predominantly missile users with rails as a secondary weapon system, the current ship line up reflects that so everything seems to be fine.


Exactly, it's like complaining Minmatar don't have a marauder that uses missiles, or Amarr don't get a Black ops that fields drones.

OP has succeeded in missing the point.
Saelem Black
Cog Banking
#14 - 2014-07-12 00:04:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Saelem Black
Kaerakh wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Saelem Black wrote:
I've been thinking about this as a gun focused caldari player. There seems to be a lack of upper end gunboats for caldari players ala the merlin ship line.

For missiles we have, kestrel -> corax -> caracal -> drake -> raven -> CNR\Golem\SNI\Widow
For rails we have merlin -> cormorant -> moa -> ferox -> rokh/naga

There isn't any top tier for caldari rail users. All of caldari high end is missiles, CNR, SNI, Golem, Widow, Rattlesnake, Barghest. The only thing even remotely applicable is the nightmare, but that requires an entire different turret family. I'd like to see a proper rail specialized faction\tech2 BS.

Maybe repurpose the SNI, since it doesn't seem to be used much, especially in comparison to the CNR.
10% to large hybrid optimal range level
10% to large hybrid damage per level

6 highs, 6 turrets
8 mids
6 lows

Thoughts?


Caldari are meant to be predominantly missile users with rails as a secondary weapon system, the current ship line up reflects that so everything seems to be fine.


Exactly, it's like complaining Minmatar don't have a marauder that uses missiles, or Amarr don't get a Black ops that fields drones.

OP has succeeded in missing the point.


Did you even read the OP or the posts that followed? Posters like you drive me nuts. Pay attention, and actually think before rudely attacking another person's ideas.

Firstly, I suggested a change to faction ship, not tech 2. Secondly, blackops have yet to be rebalanced. It is very likely the redeemer will go the way of the armageddon before it and get drone bonuses. Then finally, as I already posted literally three posts above, the other factions DO have top tier heavy hitters with their secondary weapon available. ==> Fleet phoon, navy dominix. Nestor/Bhaal for amarr requires a couple days more training time but otherwise uses all core amarr skills, and as I mentioned earlier, the redeemer may very well be rebalanced to be drone oriented.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2014-07-12 02:30:04 UTC
Lunkwill Khashour wrote:
The Vulture is arguably one of the best high end fleet ships in the game right now.


Good luck finding a "fleet" of pilots that actually trained 15 ranks of Charisma skills up to V to be able to fly command ships.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2014-07-12 02:49:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
Xequecal wrote:
Good luck finding a "fleet" of pilots that actually trained 15 ranks of Charisma skills up to V to be able to fly command ships.

True. But finding a fleet of pilots who trained Warfare Link Specialist IV and injected the Command Ships skill before the change might not be so hard. The Sleipnir has been a popular PVP ship for a very long time.
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#17 - 2014-07-12 02:59:17 UTC
Kaerakh wrote:
Exactly, it's like complaining Minmatar don't have a marauder that uses missiles

OP has succeeded in missing the point.

It's like saying that there should be faction minmatar battleship that uses missiles. (Shockingly, there is)

Stop trying to sound smarter than people without reading; read then be condescending.
Saelem Black
Cog Banking
#18 - 2014-07-12 03:05:44 UTC
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Kaerakh wrote:
Exactly, it's like complaining Minmatar don't have a marauder that uses missiles

OP has succeeded in missing the point.

It's like saying that there should be faction minmatar battleship that uses missiles. (Shockingly, there is)

Stop trying to sound smarter than people without reading; read then be condescending.



Or the same about how there should be a faction (or tech 2) gallente battleship that uses drones. Huh! Surprise again!
Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied
#19 - 2014-07-12 04:35:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaerakh
Saelem Black wrote:
Kaerakh wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Saelem Black wrote:
I've been thinking about this as a gun focused caldari player. There seems to be a lack of upper end gunboats for caldari players ala the merlin ship line.

For missiles we have, kestrel -> corax -> caracal -> drake -> raven -> CNR\Golem\SNI\Widow
For rails we have merlin -> cormorant -> moa -> ferox -> rokh/naga

There isn't any top tier for caldari rail users. All of caldari high end is missiles, CNR, SNI, Golem, Widow, Rattlesnake, Barghest. The only thing even remotely applicable is the nightmare, but that requires an entire different turret family. I'd like to see a proper rail specialized faction\tech2 BS.

Maybe repurpose the SNI, since it doesn't seem to be used much, especially in comparison to the CNR.
10% to large hybrid optimal range level
10% to large hybrid damage per level

6 highs, 6 turrets
8 mids
6 lows

Thoughts?


Caldari are meant to be predominantly missile users with rails as a secondary weapon system, the current ship line up reflects that so everything seems to be fine.


Exactly, it's like complaining Minmatar don't have a marauder that uses missiles, or Amarr don't get a Black ops that fields drones.

OP has succeeded in missing the point.


Did you even read the OP or the posts that followed? Posters like you drive me nuts. Pay attention, and actually think before rudely attacking another person's ideas.

Firstly, I suggested a change to faction ship, not tech 2. Secondly, blackops have yet to be rebalanced. It is very likely the redeemer will go the way of the armageddon before it and get drone bonuses. Then finally, as I already posted literally three posts above, the other factions DO have top tier heavy hitters with their secondary weapon available. ==> Fleet phoon, navy dominix. Nestor/Bhaal for amarr requires a couple days more training time but otherwise uses all core amarr skills, and as I mentioned earlier, the redeemer may very well be rebalanced to be drone oriented.


Did you even read my post, or the post before mine? Posters like you drive me nuts. pay attention, and actually think before rudely attacking someone's poorly thought out ideas.

Firstly, neither of us said it was or even had to be T2. Secondly, you have no evidence other than opinion in regards to the redeemer. Then finally, as I keep telling you people over and over on this board, post something substantiated if you're going to try and sound smart.

HiddenPorpoise wrote:

It's like saying that there should be faction minmatar battleship that uses missiles. (Shockingly, there is)

Stop trying to sound smarter than people without reading; read then be condescending.


There's also a cruiser, but I don't see the relevance.Roll Also, it's rather that they can use missiles, not that they always do.

Stop trying to sound smarter than people without looking up the information; know your topic then be pretentious.



Now that I'm done playing who's epeen is bigger. My main problem with this idea is that it assumes caldari is special and deserves a whole additional ship while the other races don't. That's all.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2014-07-12 07:20:45 UTC
Grenn Putubi wrote:

Do you want the Minmatar to get a new 'top tier' missile boat?


Typhoon Fleet Issue says hi!
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