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Player Owned Customs Offices: Math, Markets and Design Problems

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Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#261 - 2011-12-05 14:50:52 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Damage Control? Goons? Goons don't do PR damage control, they do PR damage amplification. They're kind of funny(sociopathic) like that.



Yeah, the smart thing would have been to ignore the grumblings instead of posting in every single thread on the subject. It makes you look desperate to hide something.

Makes people like me dig deeper and harder.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#262 - 2011-12-05 15:17:34 UTC
Go ahead and dig. I'm sure you'll find absolutely ****-all.

Make sure you post your findings.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#263 - 2011-12-05 22:08:06 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Go ahead and dig. I'm sure you'll find absolutely ****-all.

Make sure you post your findings.



That wasn't the point and you know it. The point was that being super defensive of a given subject makes goons look like they're guilty of something.

It's sort of like:

'Who ate some of the cookies?'

'I have NO IDEA where those two cookies went! and even if I did, i certainly wouldn't have eaten them both while you were in the other room!'
bilingi
Grandeur Illusions
#264 - 2011-12-05 22:19:47 UTC
I might believe you except for the fact goons are flooding every PI post with BS.... But hey lol you have to love people like that. They lie so much they even believe it themselves,,,...
Just glance at any post with PI in it i found 1 that hasnt got some goons in it repeating the same lines over and over,
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#265 - 2011-12-05 22:22:38 UTC
If you say so. We're telling you how things are, if you think that's "being defensive" then that's your problem. And I'm telling you, now, to go ahead and dig if you really think we're hiding something, and remember to tell us about it if you do find something. I'll be here, waiting.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#266 - 2011-12-06 04:41:09 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Go ahead and dig. I'm sure you'll find absolutely ****-all.

Make sure you post your findings.



That wasn't the point and you know it. The point was that being super defensive of a given subject makes goons look like they're guilty of something.

It's sort of like:

'Who ate some of the cookies?'

'I have NO IDEA where those two cookies went! and even if I did, i certainly wouldn't have eaten them both while you were in the other room!'


The depths have already been dug. (They weren't that deep anyway). Goons have been driving oxytopes up through coordinated suicide ganking. Before starting they bought enormous stockpiles of it. The alliance now has even fatter stacks of cash. The evidence for this is in the many posts where the Goons told the public their plan and how they were going to accomplish it.


... Wait, this is the Goons are mean about PI whine thread, not the Oxytopes whine thread.

This thread's OP was about how the POCOs would likely affect PI based on the SISI taxes. In some cases, the SISI taxes were 50-100x lower than what made it to TQ. Somehow this became the Goons fault (I still don't get that logical leap).

And if you were talking about digging into me, I'm former WI. Goons NOMed WI. FREE WIDOT. Hole pre-dug for you to search (it's like taking viagra on your way to the airport).

Besides, Goons make too many funny things happen in EVE to possibly dislike them for very long.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Alisarina
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#267 - 2011-12-06 07:57:45 UTC
I could be one oft he only people here that love the goons for all they do in Eve. Granted I don't stoop low enough to mine either minerals or ice so am not subject to their suicide ganking (and if if I was, being suicide ganked mining would be doing me a service of slapping me around and asking 'WTF are you doing this for you moron?!? get out of mining NOW!').

So saying that, I've never been harassed by goons in all the time I've played and their market manipulations and trolling in the forums are almost always funny, some just make you scratch your head and move on wondering wtf you just read but that's teh same in any forum.

If they are going to hike up the PI goods, all the power to em. Grand scheme of things everyone will either directly or indirectly make more isk from a large number of activities related to PI as a consequence of a price hike. Now if they crash it (not going to happen but still IF) then it's also a win for alot of people that use PI goods to make stuff and fuel their PoS's. For me currently if the PI market goes up from goons threatening to hike it up or crashes I would be uneffected due to margins being how they are I would still make cash, or just pull out of the market totally and reinvest in something else that may end up being a gold mine that I never knew about.

All the pointless whining about PI taxes, null sec getting a great deal and HS being screwed and low sec being left in that permanent gray area are pointless. It just shows how inflexible you are to a dynamic environment. If you find HS taxes force you to make no profit for whatever reason and you refuse to go to low sec and do it with, lets admit, bugger all risk then you deserve to be left out in the cold whilst the adaptive kids have a party.

Remember there are two things certain in life: Death and Taxes...this is your wake up call :P
Dr Mercy
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#268 - 2011-12-06 13:34:59 UTC
Oh, I did some calculations today. Turns out apart from 3 exceptions that market prices (the lower, buy-order ones) are already high enough to cover highsec PI taxes even if I assume you export and re-import at every stage.

All you guys who said highsec PI for newbies was dead were wrong. Anyone can thoughtlessly make isk my passively extracting PI materials - so long as they avoid Biofuels (P1), Guidance Systems (P3) and Planetary Vehicles (P3)

Make isk with PI: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?1207-What-to-do-PI-Processor-only-planets
Alisarina
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#269 - 2011-12-06 14:18:31 UTC
shhh...don't let the unwashed masses know this! if they do the markets will crash!

Haha who am I kidding, people are too lazy to do PI and the stigma that it's dead in high sec and low sec has already settled, even if it's only had a few days to get it's tendrils out.

Really though I'm back to normal if not slightly higher margins after a minor re-organization, mainly due to changing locations of factory worlds.

Side note: the buff to transit tubes or whatever they are called is handy as hell!
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#270 - 2011-12-06 14:42:58 UTC
Dr Mercy wrote:

All you guys who said highsec PI for newbies was dead were wrong. Anyone can thoughtlessly make isk my passively extracting PI materials - so long as they avoid Biofuels (P1), Guidance Systems (P3) and Planetary Vehicles (P3)



So the costs of T2 drones and missiles are not yet done rising.

Again, this is bad for the game past the short tun. The effects still have not fully rippled outward through the market. They're still going, and won't be fully realized for months. Saying 'Well the price has stabilized at 'profit' for these items.' isn't even close to true, because the T2 items that are the result of these haven't really been effected much yet due to existing stockpiles.

It's the same reason that T2 didn't instantly double in price when PI was introduced but has been slowly climbing.

The real issue come about when t2 prices rise. Sure, the individual items increase in profit, but demand starts to decline the higher the price goes. A few people hav told me I'm over estimating the elasticity in demand for t2, but my own experiences in the market tell me I'm not.


We'll see if this remains healthy six months from now when stockpiles have dwindled a bit.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#271 - 2011-12-06 15:05:29 UTC
Why is this "bad for the game"? Are you expecting T2 modules to double or quadrouple in price, or are you really saying that f.ex a 10% increase in t2 modules/ships/ammo's price will break the game?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#272 - 2011-12-06 15:23:58 UTC
In the last year prices have increased 50-100% before the PI changes. Some have increase 20% or more in the few days since.

That they might double again within six months is not outside the realm of possibility, though I'm thinking closer to the year mark.

That it might break the game is a real possibility. The higher the prices rise, the more difficult it is for new players to be competitive with older players. These guys eventually get frustrated and quit, heading over to games like WoT or ToR or whatever.

Remember that the majority of alliances don't recruit heavily below the 1 year mark, which is the time period that the majority of these budding pvpers get disgusted and pack it in, even though it's possible to get into tech 2 in a month or two.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#273 - 2011-12-06 15:52:37 UTC
Why would they double? You realize that the reason they doubled in the first place was the stuff we make out of PI was NPC seeded, and as such had artificially low prices? This change adds 10-20%, the fuel price might add a few percent more. I strongly doubt t2 prices'll double.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Dr Mercy
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#274 - 2011-12-06 15:57:01 UTC
There's no real reason for PI goods to further increase in cost - the adjustment to the new PI tariffs has taken place. In fact, I expect some prices to decrease as margins become tighter. Whilst POCOs can undercut these margins, highsec tariff rates will set the standard prices in general.

Please bear in mind that the changes (to the tariff rates and the increase to 10%) has resulted in an effective increase of PI taxes of between 400,000-700,000k isk per P4 unit. Each 5% increase to PI tax rates causes a further 300,000-500,000k PI tax increase.

So I don't expect the PI changes to cause further effects to T2 prices. The biggest up coming change will be the fuel pellets and the homogenisation of fuels costs regardless of tower setup.

Make isk with PI: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?1207-What-to-do-PI-Processor-only-planets
Hundo Kay
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#275 - 2011-12-06 18:01:59 UTC
I'm sorry, I still don't get the whole worry about the price of T2 stuff and PI. I really just have to say "So what!"

Are we worried that people will stop using T2 drones and Missiles in PVE? T2 drones are a drop in the bucket to most decent L4 setup. I am sure the people flying around in CNR's and Golems are going to stop running L4's because a Hammerhead II went from 500k to 750K each, or a DCII went from 1M to 1.5M. And really PVE sales should pale in comparison to PVP.

And for PVP, do you think someone is going to buy a 30M hull for a decent DPS BC, and then worry about spending 2-3M more for T2 fit than Meta 3?

People are also speaking out of both sides of their mouth with "PI cost are going to make T2 soar" and "I bought enough old NPC PI stuff to last forever". So if I figure that one person was not the only one smart enough to make those plans, then I am assured stable prices until all the smart people's supply of old NPC goods runs out.

In the end, the demand for PI stuff is going to stay relatively constant, and mainly from POS usage, not the T2 market.

The initial reaction to the new tariffs has already stabilized and returned to a profit level about where it was for HS. The question long term will be what Null/Low/W-space people decide to do if they have 0% tax rate on their POCO's. If they are stupid they will undercut the HS market and establish a level HS can not compete on. Or, more hopefully, they will take the Tariff's (or lack thereof) and pocket more isk to help offset logistics costs and investment costs.

So here's to 2M Isk for a DCII's and 1M Isk for T2 drones soon. I am for it.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#276 - 2011-12-06 23:05:30 UTC
Hundo Kay wrote:

People are also speaking out of both sides of their mouth with "PI cost are going to make T2 soar" and "I bought enough old NPC PI stuff to last forever". So if I figure that one person was not the only one smart enough to make those plans, then I am assured stable prices until all the smart people's supply of old NPC goods runs out.

In the end, the demand for PI stuff is going to stay relatively constant, and mainly from POS usage, not the T2 market.

The initial reaction to the new tariffs has already stabilized and returned to a profit level about where it was for HS. The question long term will be what Null/Low/W-space people decide to do if they have 0% tax rate on their POCO's. If they are stupid they will undercut the HS market and establish a level HS can not compete on. Or, more hopefully, they will take the Tariff's (or lack thereof) and pocket more isk to help offset logistics costs and investment costs.

So here's to 2M Isk for a DCII's and 1M Isk for T2 drones soon. I am for it.





Actually, I'm willing to bet that most people did not buy enough robotics to keep their POS running for 28,000 years. I know that I did only by accident, but it turned out for the best.

'Most' producers have since exhausted their surplus from before PI, which is why the cost of T2 has risen as far as it has.

As far as it being kept artificially low, there was a reason, mostly the crippling effect that high Tech II had on new players previous to that point.

And at the moment, you are not yet seeing how far the price will rise. Prices may have stabilized in the short term only to rise in the long term (such as happened with command ships).

And how would undercutting HS be stupid on their part? That's like saying that major alliances were stupid to set up cabals to control the price of t2 before invention. Remember that PvP in EvE isn't limited to just ship on ship violence. The marketbears are just as eager to bankrupt other players as PvP players are to gank them and loot their wrecks.

You're all for it because you do not see how it impacts you, personally.

You're missing the bigger picture. Requiring a higher fiscal level to viably PvP hinders the game when it comes to gaining users, particularly since it's no longer the only game in town anymore.

This in turn is bad for CCP, who are laying off and trying to consolidate around what they see as their money makers. The fewer new players EvE retains, the more difficult it is to justify the expense of developing new content.

Which hurts everyone.
Hundo Kay
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#277 - 2011-12-06 23:24:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Hundo Kay
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Hundo Kay wrote:

People are also speaking out of both sides of their mouth with "PI cost are going to make T2 soar" and "I bought enough old NPC PI stuff to last forever". So if I figure that one person was not the only one smart enough to make those plans, then I am assured stable prices until all the smart people's supply of old NPC goods runs out.

In the end, the demand for PI stuff is going to stay relatively constant, and mainly from POS usage, not the T2 market.

The initial reaction to the new tariffs has already stabilized and returned to a profit level about where it was for HS. The question long term will be what Null/Low/W-space people decide to do if they have 0% tax rate on their POCO's. If they are stupid they will undercut the HS market and establish a level HS can not compete on. Or, more hopefully, they will take the Tariff's (or lack thereof) and pocket more isk to help offset logistics costs and investment costs.

So here's to 2M Isk for a DCII's and 1M Isk for T2 drones soon. I am for it.





Actually, I'm willing to bet that most people did not buy enough robotics to keep their POS running for 28,000 years. I know that I did only by accident, but it turned out for the best.

'Most' producers have since exhausted their surplus from before PI, which is why the cost of T2 has risen as far as it has.

As far as it being kept artificially low, there was a reason, mostly the crippling effect that high Tech II had on new players previous to that point.

And at the moment, you are not yet seeing how far the price will rise. Prices may have stabilized in the short term only to rise in the long term (such as happened with command ships).

And how would undercutting HS be stupid on their part? That's like saying that major alliances were stupid to set up cabals to control the price of t2 before invention. Remember that PvP in EvE isn't limited to just ship on ship violence. The marketbears are just as eager to bankrupt other players as PvP players are to gank them and loot their wrecks.

You're all for it because you do not see how it impacts you, personally.

You're missing the bigger picture. Requiring a higher fiscal level to viably PvP hinders the game when it comes to gaining users, particularly since it's no longer the only game in town anymore.

This in turn is bad for CCP, who are laying off and trying to consolidate around what they see as their money makers. The fewer new players EvE retains, the more difficult it is to justify the expense of developing new content.

Which hurts everyone.


No I see it fine.

Incursions are sick isk

L4's are sick Isk

No one with any skill in the game is going to sneeze at higher cost for some T2 items, as they are not the major cost in a ship setup.

Sure if they go up 10x or 20x that will have an impact. But not the level the PI increase will contribute.

Keep all your "Chicken Little" posts and we will see in 6 months how many people have decided to not PvP because of the astronomical cost of T2 goods.

And I do PvP, so I do see the cost. So with the increase in my PI income I will more then offset the ships and mods i go through in pew pew.
pmchem
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#278 - 2011-12-07 01:19:30 UTC
Hundo Kay wrote:

Incursions are sick isk


That's actually the next thing that needs to be nerfed. Incursions are too much of an isk fountain, it's crazy. They are in need of iteration.

POCOs seem to be turning out quite well so far, I am happy.

https://twitter.com/pmchem/ || http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/community-spotlight-garpa/ || Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#279 - 2011-12-07 07:54:31 UTC
someone tl;dr me this is a ******* long thread that i don't want to be bothered to skim through

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Alisarina
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#280 - 2011-12-07 08:00:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Alisarina
TL;DR version:

People: QQ!!! CCP wtf you do with PI taxes?!?! You have destroyed the game...I'm going to quit

Other people: Cool, go, can I have your stuffz

Smart people: PI tax is fine, POCO are fine. Learn to adapt and HTFU or GTFO of PI and go back to incursions/mining/insert other activity.

There is alot more subtleties in the thread and other things been covered, but thats the basics with no flesh.

EDIT: also forgot the bitching and moaning towards teh goons, but that's normal from people being jelly of them. Again the general consensus is for them to HTFU too.