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Why new people are critical to EvE

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#141 - 2014-07-10 01:25:15 UTC
Nexus Day wrote:
There shouldn't be a right path in EvE. Not unless everyone who calls it a sandbox are completely wrong.

Again, by very definition of sandbox (not to mention multiplayer sandbox), there are paths that simply aren't right for EVE and that the game can't properly support.
Christina Project
Screaming Head in a Box.
#142 - 2014-07-10 01:29:36 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Nexus Day wrote:
There shouldn't be a right path in EvE. Not unless everyone who calls it a sandbox are completely wrong.

Again, by very definition of sandbox (not to mention multiplayer sandbox), there are paths that simply aren't right for EVE and that the game can't properly support.
Like carebearing, right?!

[i]"Don't look into another human's bowl to see how much he has ... ... look into his bowl to see if he has enough !" - Sol[/i]
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#143 - 2014-07-10 01:35:47 UTC
Christina Project wrote:
Like carebearing, right?!

For certain definitions of carebearing, yes.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#144 - 2014-07-10 01:39:23 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Christina Project wrote:
Like carebearing, right?!

For certain definitions of carebearing, yes.


Along with pretty much anything else whereby one endeavors to pretend that EVE is a single player game.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#145 - 2014-07-10 02:06:59 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Christina Project wrote:
Like carebearing, right?!

For certain definitions of carebearing, yes.


Along with pretty much anything else whereby one endeavors to pretend that EVE is a single player game.

Or a game that permits arbitrary rules to enforce "fair" fights (looking at you "arenas")
Christina Project
Screaming Head in a Box.
#146 - 2014-07-10 07:34:45 UTC
I really am a scrub lord I guess ...
... but damn, people deserve it so much!

[i]"Don't look into another human's bowl to see how much he has ... ... look into his bowl to see if he has enough !" - Sol[/i]
Hemel Keynes
Doomheim
#147 - 2014-07-10 08:01:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Hemel Keynes
Sandbox doesn't mean 'should cater for all styles of gameplay'.

It means you can build your fancy sandcastle if you want, but everyone else is free to kick it down.
Christina Project
Screaming Head in a Box.
#148 - 2014-07-10 08:25:32 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Christina Project wrote:
Like carebearing, right?!

For certain definitions of carebearing, yes.


Along with pretty much anything else whereby one endeavors to pretend that EVE is a single player game.

I actually do a lot of PvE.
Whereever I am I see mindless bots flying around in space,
controlled by software, travelling from gate to gate.

Sometimes they stop working and just sit around.

Then I farm them. I think it's a bit unfair by CCP, though,
to ruin my playstyle by forcing me to wait 15min after every kill!

I mean... seriously, all the scrubs shoot software controlled entities too,
doing so in a much safer environment,
yet these people get money for this **** that's even easier than what I do.


CCP really should fix this!

[i]"Don't look into another human's bowl to see how much he has ... ... look into his bowl to see if he has enough !" - Sol[/i]
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#149 - 2014-07-10 12:54:27 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Eve is like S&M.

Some people find pleasure in it and others find it just painful.


If you find being a sadist painful

You aren't doing it right

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Alaric Faelen
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#150 - 2014-07-10 14:58:50 UTC
I feel there are several reasons new players are often critical of Eve, although none of them are the fault of Eve.

1) Players aren't interested in playing Eve. They simply want to be told how to 'win' by people that already have. That is why these forums are loaded with 'what is the best for...' and 'how do I...' posts. Few people want to learn how to play this game, they just want to be told what works and copy that. It is a remnant of games like WoW, which aren't sandboxes so there is always a 'best' or 'right' for everything.

2) The goal is to avoid player interaction, in an MMO. Not unique to Eve, but Eve's design is entirely based on the concept of fleets, specialized ships and roles, and rewarding massive player interaction. Since it takes some time to get to know people and get into substantial fleets, new players really are missing out on the very core of the game, and that is frustrating. There are more threads asking how to multi-box, use alts, etc than there are 'pilot looking for a corp' threads. People will go to almost any length rather than make a friend among the half million subscribers to Eve.

3) Modern gamers do not plan on playing any game for long. So many of the threads here complain that it takes....dread....maybe months to do 'end game' stuff in Eve. Rather than see Eve as a long term investment and enjoy slowly bringing up a character, they fully expect to be doing end game content almost as soon as they subscribe. These are the people that don't enjoy the game itself, only the feeling of success at having beaten it. Doesn't matter what the game is, if they can't 'beat' it by grinding, they don't keep playing.

4) Unrealistic expectations. I see many complaints by newbs that older players or corps don't essentially just give them everything for free, while asking nothing in return. People complain that they aren't given skillsbooks, ships, and rescue fleets when they are ganked- but those same people complain bitterly that any corp would dare expect them to join a PvP fleet. This is an overall sense of entitlement that is tiresome to veteran players.

5) PvE itself is broken. Because PvE is static, it only keeps getting easier. You may repeat an L4 mission dozens of times, but each time it gets easier (and less interesting) because your skills and ship improve but the enemy does not. This leads to the goal of PvE becoming how AFK you can make it. Success is measured in how little you actually interact with the game. You'll never see a thread in the forums about what is the most FUN way to do any PvE- only the most AFK way to do it. I've never seen someone discuss purposely using undersized ships for PvE to increase challenge, only threads about how to run high sec newb missions in billion isk battleships.

6) Inability to accept loss. This touches on a couple other points here but...gamers today seem to derive too much self-esteem from gaming so loss, any loss, is absolutely intolerable to them. But in Eve, if you undock it, eventually it WILL die.


7) Fitting a square peg in a round hole. Eve is not other games. It stands on the pillars of non-consensual PvP and actual loss of destroyed/stolen items. That is the game we play. However, most of the complaints by newbs stems from them not accepting this fact. They come to Eve, then immediately demand Eve become another game entirely just for them. It frustrates those of us that came to Eve specifically because it is the only game that IS hard, DOES have non-consensual PvP, DOES have scammers, etc.
Gostina Mishina
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#151 - 2014-07-10 23:02:33 UTC
There are a lot of vets around who don't want the game to change. There are a lot of forum warriors who believe they are supposed to agree, and that new players should simply adapt or leave.

However, that cuts both ways. We know what happens to MMOs that never change. Their subscriber bases shrink to the point that the game companies no longer find it profitable to develop them. By the time the game companies panic and try to change, they don't have the resources for meaningful adaptation.

CCP has probably been wise, for the most part, to introduce gradual change, and yet subscriptions seem to have peaked and even fallen a bit. This is a crossroads, and the sudden shift to many small patches per year is an indication of new strategy by CCP.

I doubt we're going to see major shifts in the NPE, or high-sec safety. I think that CCP will follow the same arc that every other game company has: eventual failure to innovate in the next few years, or a loss of interest and refocus on other games, chasing the big score, etc. Just in case this weird little Icelandic company *does* decide to stick around for another decade...you vets might want to HTFU and do a little adaptation of your own, just in case the game you have right now is not what the market demands three years hence.

Yeah, EVE is dying, just like every other game, but more slowly than most. Not dying--or growing significantly as CCP says they need to do--will mean change of some sort. Are you tough enough to deal? Re-ship and join fleet.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#152 - 2014-07-10 23:10:21 UTC
Gostina Mishina wrote:
We know what happens to MMOs that never change.


Name one

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#153 - 2014-07-11 02:24:58 UTC
Gostina Mishina wrote:
There are a lot of vets around who don't want the game to change. There are a lot of forum warriors who believe they are supposed to agree, and that new players should simply adapt or leave.

However, that cuts both ways. We know what happens to MMOs that never change. Their subscriber bases shrink to the point that the game companies no longer find it profitable to develop them. By the time the game companies panic and try to change, they don't have the resources for meaningful adaptation.

CCP has probably been wise, for the most part, to introduce gradual change, and yet subscriptions seem to have peaked and even fallen a bit. This is a crossroads, and the sudden shift to many small patches per year is an indication of new strategy by CCP.

I doubt we're going to see major shifts in the NPE, or high-sec safety. I think that CCP will follow the same arc that every other game company has: eventual failure to innovate in the next few years, or a loss of interest and refocus on other games, chasing the big score, etc. Just in case this weird little Icelandic company *does* decide to stick around for another decade...you vets might want to HTFU and do a little adaptation of your own, just in case the game you have right now is not what the market demands three years hence.

Yeah, EVE is dying, just like every other game, but more slowly than most. Not dying--or growing significantly as CCP says they need to do--will mean change of some sort. Are you tough enough to deal? Re-ship and join fleet.


EVE has already been around longer than any other MMO has ever existed. EVE is already innovative, is already a new experience for anyone that hasn't tried it. It is the only single-shard space sandbox on the market, and the only metagame that makes mainstream media headlines. New features and 'changes' have to benefit existing players, not the new ones, because they won't matter to new players - anyone joining the game for the first time is experiencing a tonne of new stuff already, and any recent changes won't make a lick of difference to them. So any changes made in the near or distant future won't be for new player retention, the need to be for the benefit of the existing audience only.

And I've already been over any changes being made to expand that audience in a previous post that I put a lot of effort into explaining in the simplest terms why broadening your audience is a risky venture, and the biggest reason why MMO's fail - not stagnation, but radical changes that attempt to please too many people at once resulting in everyone becoming disappointed. Star Wars Galaxies was a prime example of this.

The reason EVE is still around, though, and will still be around for a long time to come, and is by no means dying, is analogous to how slow-release energy works in low GI fibre foods - slow release and development keeps energy levels high enough to function for a long period of time before it gets 'fed' next. Rapid and radical changes are like throwing gasoline on a wood fire... sure, you'll get a really sudden bright flame but the explosive force has the potential to put the fire out completely.

You've also fallen for what I call the Summer Delusion, that everyone suddenly going on holiday means EVE is dying. Some people have a life, you know, and I promise you that EVE is not the only game they're not presently playing.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#154 - 2014-07-11 02:27:24 UTC
Ah, the "EvE is dying" argument again. Never gets old.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#155 - 2014-07-11 02:33:55 UTC
Gostina Mishina wrote:
There are a lot of vets around who don't want the game to change. There are a lot of forum warriors who believe they are supposed to agree, and that new players should simply adapt or leave.

However, that cuts both ways. We know what happens to MMOs that never change. Their subscriber bases shrink to the point that the game companies no longer find it profitable to develop them. By the time the game companies panic and try to change, they don't have the resources for meaningful adaptation.

CCP has probably been wise, for the most part, to introduce gradual change, and yet subscriptions seem to have peaked and even fallen a bit. This is a crossroads, and the sudden shift to many small patches per year is an indication of new strategy by CCP.

I doubt we're going to see major shifts in the NPE, or high-sec safety. I think that CCP will follow the same arc that every other game company has: eventual failure to innovate in the next few years, or a loss of interest and refocus on other games, chasing the big score, etc. Just in case this weird little Icelandic company *does* decide to stick around for another decade...you vets might want to HTFU and do a little adaptation of your own, just in case the game you have right now is not what the market demands three years hence.

Yeah, EVE is dying, just like every other game, but more slowly than most. Not dying--or growing significantly as CCP says they need to do--will mean change of some sort. Are you tough enough to deal? Re-ship and join fleet.


You cannot justify bad changes that way. Change is not inherently good, least of all for it's own sake. And most especially not the kind of one sided, self interested myopic crap that people tend to suggest.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#156 - 2014-07-11 03:11:55 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Gostina Mishina wrote:
There are a lot of vets around who don't want the game to change. There are a lot of forum warriors who believe they are supposed to agree, and that new players should simply adapt or leave.

However, that cuts both ways. We know what happens to MMOs that never change. Their subscriber bases shrink to the point that the game companies no longer find it profitable to develop them. By the time the game companies panic and try to change, they don't have the resources for meaningful adaptation.

CCP has probably been wise, for the most part, to introduce gradual change, and yet subscriptions seem to have peaked and even fallen a bit. This is a crossroads, and the sudden shift to many small patches per year is an indication of new strategy by CCP.

I doubt we're going to see major shifts in the NPE, or high-sec safety. I think that CCP will follow the same arc that every other game company has: eventual failure to innovate in the next few years, or a loss of interest and refocus on other games, chasing the big score, etc. Just in case this weird little Icelandic company *does* decide to stick around for another decade...you vets might want to HTFU and do a little adaptation of your own, just in case the game you have right now is not what the market demands three years hence.

Yeah, EVE is dying, just like every other game, but more slowly than most. Not dying--or growing significantly as CCP says they need to do--will mean change of some sort. Are you tough enough to deal? Re-ship and join fleet.


You cannot justify bad changes that way. Change is not inherently good, least of all for it's own sake. And most especially not the kind of one sided, self interested myopic crap that people tend to suggest.

It's the changes that he has in mind which are inherently good and should be done asap

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Chewytowel Haklar
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#157 - 2014-07-11 04:04:30 UTC
Look for one thing, some of you guys have up to 10 years on us newer players. That is a hell of a lot of time to learn the game and train skills across not just one character but many. In addition, many of you have formed relationships in this game with quite a few people and have them to help you or team up with whenever you need. You might argue that a corporation is also there to help anyone that is a part of it and therefore help that newer player. Yet that is not the same thing.

Also, I can't help it really that I have been playing games where the min/max way of doing things was always to approach something from a certain angle and that was just how the content was beaten. MMO's take time and lots of effort to get into, and frankly it's hard to even have the time for many people to even scrounge up that time to get into a new one. And of course we are all perhaps going to complain, whine, be sad or whatever but that doesn't mean we don't want to learn. I don't mind learning how to play EVE on my 'own' terms that work within the games framework. I also don't learn very quickly or adapt on the fly as well and I do get sad and frustrated while playing EVE. It sucks that a game can do that but MMO's and other time intensive and skill intensive can be emotionally impactful quite often. I also see how involved pvp is and it seems pretty complicated and I have been so used to just rushing in and shooting things or blowing things up in other games. I mean we have transversal, rad/sec tracking, optimal/falloff ranges, speed tanking, active/passive/buffer tanking, EWAR, Reppers, Inty's, and more and knowing each ships capabilities and how to fight them (I mean listening to someone explain spaceship battles sounds like they are explaining a real world dog fight to me). This stuff isn't easy O.O!

So as a new player I am not saying I don't want to learn, or that I want you to change the game around, and perhaps I will have A LOT of bad ideas as well as to how to improve the game, but that doesn't mean my opinion isn't worth sharing. It doesn't mean I am not allowed to be frustrated, sad, or even be allowed to just take a break and come back later and play this game off and on if I want. This is an MMO and thus has other people playing the game around us and I am sure no matter how much anyone denies it the fact is that you all need one another to make the game what it is.

I get that you guys are amazing at internet spaceships and advanced economics, that you have built alliances in nullsec, have had massive wars, and done many many other things and like the way you have it. I get that you like the way the game is and how unforgiving and brutal it can be. But I think you are biased by those experiences and they cloud your judgement and perhaps even go as far as to push new players away.
Grog Aftermath
Doomheim
#158 - 2014-07-11 04:23:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Grog Aftermath
Chewytowel Haklar wrote:

It sucks that a game can do that but MMO's and other time intensive and skill intensive can be emotionally impactful quite often.


If I started to get emotional over a game, that would be the time to do something else.


Chewytowel Haklar wrote:

So as a new player I am not saying I don't want to learn, or that I want you to change the game around, and perhaps I will have A LOT of bad ideas as well as to how to improve the game, but that doesn't mean my opinion isn't worth sharing. It doesn't mean I am not allowed to be frustrated, sad, or even be allowed to just take a break and come back later and play this game off and on if I want. This is an MMO and thus has other people playing the game around us and I am sure no matter how much anyone denies it the fact is that you all need one another to make the game what it is.


Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but that's exactly what it is. If you give an opinion then you should expect someone else's opinion as an answer.

Chewytowel Haklar wrote:

I get that you guys are amazing at internet spaceships and advanced economics, that you have built alliances in nullsec, have had massive wars, and done many many other things and like the way you have it. I get that you like the way the game is and how unforgiving and brutal it can be. But I think you are biased by those experiences and they cloud your judgement and perhaps even go as far as to push new players away.


The reason some people go a bit over the top is that they don't want this game heading in the style of other MMO's (WoW style theme parks).


edit took awhile due to the silly post limit for new characters, silly because it's only an edit.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#159 - 2014-07-11 04:28:40 UTC
Chewytowel Haklar wrote:
Look for one thing, some of you guys have up to 10 years on us newer players. That is a hell of a lot of time to learn the game and train skills across not just one character but many. In addition, many of you have formed relationships in this game with quite a few people and have them to help you or team up with whenever you need. You might argue that a corporation is also there to help anyone that is a part of it and therefore help that newer player. Yet that is not the same thing.

Also, I can't help it really that I have been playing games where the min/max way of doing things was always to approach something from a certain angle and that was just how the content was beaten. MMO's take time and lots of effort to get into, and frankly it's hard to even have the time for many people to even scrounge up that time to get into a new one. And of course we are all perhaps going to complain, whine, be sad or whatever but that doesn't mean we don't want to learn. I don't mind learning how to play EVE on my 'own' terms that work within the games framework. I also don't learn very quickly or adapt on the fly as well and I do get sad and frustrated while playing EVE. It sucks that a game can do that but MMO's and other time intensive and skill intensive can be emotionally impactful quite often. I also see how involved pvp is and it seems pretty complicated and I have been so used to just rushing in and shooting things or blowing things up in other games. I mean we have transversal, rad/sec tracking, optimal/falloff ranges, speed tanking, active/passive/buffer tanking, EWAR, Reppers, Inty's, and more and knowing each ships capabilities and how to fight them (I mean listening to someone explain spaceship battles sounds like they are explaining a real world dog fight to me). This stuff isn't easy O.O!

So as a new player I am not saying I don't want to learn, or that I want you to change the game around, and perhaps I will have A LOT of bad ideas as well as to how to improve the game, but that doesn't mean my opinion isn't worth sharing. It doesn't mean I am not allowed to be frustrated, sad, or even be allowed to just take a break and come back later and play this game off and on if I want. This is an MMO and thus has other people playing the game around us and I am sure no matter how much anyone denies it the fact is that you all need one another to make the game what it is.

I get that you guys are amazing at internet spaceships and advanced economics, that you have built alliances in nullsec, have had massive wars, and done many many other things and like the way you have it. I get that you like the way the game is and how unforgiving and brutal it can be. But I think you are biased by those experiences and they cloud your judgement and perhaps even go as far as to push new players away.


We all started as new players, why should the game change to cater to people who do not like the way EVE works?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#160 - 2014-07-11 05:04:46 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

We all started as new players, why should the game change to cater to people who do not like the way EVE works?


Because Ripard Teg said so.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.