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dickstar vs death star in LowSec

Author
Daigotsu Kokujin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2014-07-08 17:37:22 UTC
I am looking at possibly using a POS to build capitals in low sec while doing a little bit of moon mining to offset fuel costs. The owning corp would be small though there would be a large PvP corp as backup.

In this situation, is it better to have a dickstar or a deathstar and why?
Li Quiao
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2014-07-08 18:18:01 UTC
Is it just me, or would this make an awesome Celebrity Deathmatch?
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#3 - 2014-07-08 18:40:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
EDIT: I missed the part about building capitals... DO NOT BUILD AT A POS!! Use a station! You are inviting attacks if you build at a POS!


I prefer the terms EWAR-star / ECM-star, resist-star, and death-star, as "dickstar" is too general.

Anybody determined to reinforce / destroy a tower, will. Any tower setup will deter a small fleet. Medium and large fleets are another matter.

You primarily want to deter fleets of battlecruisers and below, especially if they are just trying to draw a fight. A general defense is about as best as one can do.

Secondarily you want to delay larger hull-class fleets. This typically means lots of shield hardeners (possibly offline as a backup).

You don't want just shield hardeners, as everything from lone frigates and up will shoot at the tower / modules to try to draw a fight, resulting in pointless annoying attack notifications.

A good place to start:
Understanding POS Guns
Caldari Tower: what is the actual net effect of the ECM "cycling speed" bonus.

Historic:
POS Setups: Jump Bridge/Cyno Jam/Reactions, Moon Mine/Mining, Labs, WH
Daigotsu Kokujin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2014-07-08 21:25:14 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
EDIT: I missed the part about building capitals... DO NOT BUILD AT A POS!! Use a station! You are inviting attacks if you build at a POS!


I should note that this is for after crius is released. Currently, my cap production is done in stations. However, after crius, I think the thukker array or null sec will be required to remain competitive. As I have no intention of moving to null, this means building out of a POS in low. My current plan is to build the components in POS, and the hull in station. Therefore I'm looking for the best way to deter attackers
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#5 - 2014-07-08 22:16:27 UTC
Daigotsu Kokujin wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
EDIT: I missed the part about building capitals... DO NOT BUILD AT A POS!! Use a station! You are inviting attacks if you build at a POS!


I should note that this is for after crius is released. Currently, my cap production is done in stations. However, after crius, I think the thukker array or null sec will be required to remain competitive. As I have no intention of moving to null, this means building out of a POS in low. My current plan is to build the components in POS, and the hull in station. Therefore I'm looking for the best way to deter attackers


If someone wants to reinforce your **** or death-star, they will. POS defences haven't kept up with the kind of crap that gets dropped these days. Everyone and their mum has 40 supers on bat phone so your POS will be reinforced inside 5 minutes. The best thing to do is write it off as a loss the moment you anchor it, only use BPCs there and don't put it on a moon that's got any goo. Someone might attack it just to get the Thukker as I expect they're going to be quite expensive.
Kukihara Akachi
Doomheim
#6 - 2014-07-09 06:08:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Kukihara Akachi
Victoria Sin wrote:
Everyone and their mum has 40 supers on bat phone so your POS will be reinforced inside 5 minutes.

If, by supers, you mean supercarriers, you should know that they can't reinforce poses.

That being said, building capitals in poses in lowsec is indeed the only way to keep competitive.
xPredat0rz
Project.Nova
The Initiative.
#7 - 2014-07-09 08:04:29 UTC
Kukihara Akachi wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Everyone and their mum has 40 supers on bat phone so your POS will be reinforced inside 5 minutes.

If, by supers, you mean supercarriers, you should know that they can't reinforce poses.

That being said, building capitals in poses in lowsec is indeed the only way to keep competitive.



While you are correct most of the blocks can field 150 dudes in a cap fleet of carriers and dreads and reinforce poses in 1 cycle.

Even most low sec groups can get their hands on at least 10 dreads.

Basically unless you are actively going to gun it with 6 guys to put enough dps on a dread to kill one you will always be at risk.
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#8 - 2014-07-09 20:21:57 UTC
While I wouldn't build out of a lowsec pos unless you're in some absolute backwater, it's a gamble either way. Deathstar if you think it's going to be mostly subcaps with maybe a couple dreads who show up, and you can gun it, Dickstar (all hardeners) if you think it's going to be a big capital drop. minmatar towers can get the highest total EHP (yes, higher than caldari) due to their combination of shield hp, and fitting allowances.

On an Angel Large tower, (use domination if you want, hp will go up, just for this example), 7 kin, 6 thermal, 6 explosive, 5 em hardeners gives you 378million EHP.

That's going to take over 90 dreads to reinforce it in a single cycle. Assuming a group has 20 dreads, they're going to be sitting there for 20 minutes+ just to reinforce your pos, which is a lot of time for you to batphone in the PL supers to get a heap of easy kills.

Fitting it with a deathstar, they may lose a dread, but they'll be in and out in under 10, if not 5 minutes.
Saleani Tsolyani
Bey Su
#9 - 2014-07-10 01:44:52 UTC
Daigotsu Kokujin wrote:
In this situation, is it better to have a dickstar or a deathstar and why?

I think the bastion mode addition to marauders in Rubicon pretty much put the nail in the coffin of dickstars.
Sir SmashAlot
The League of Extraordinary Opportunists
Intergalactic Conservation Movement
#10 - 2014-07-10 02:54:11 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
EDIT: I missed the part about building capitals... DO NOT BUILD AT A POS!! Use a station! You are inviting attacks if you build at a POS!


I prefer the terms EWAR-star / ECM-star, resist-star, and death-star, as "dickstar" is too general.


Historic:
POS Setups: Jump Bridge/Cyno Jam/Reactions, Moon Mine/Mining, Labs, WH


You missed damp-star. Mountains of damps with short range guns. Damps work every time and use half the resources of an ECM module :D
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#11 - 2014-07-10 03:17:41 UTC
Sir SmashAlot wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
EDIT: I missed the part about building capitals... DO NOT BUILD AT A POS!! Use a station! You are inviting attacks if you build at a POS!


I prefer the terms EWAR-star / ECM-star, resist-star, and death-star, as "dickstar" is too general.


Historic:
POS Setups: Jump Bridge/Cyno Jam/Reactions, Moon Mine/Mining, Labs, WH


You missed damp-star. Mountains of damps with short range guns. Damps work every time and use half the resources of an ECM module :D

Drones couldn't care less about damps, the same as they couldn't care about ECM. A group of Domi's at range with Sentries may not be ideal, but they aren't going to be stopped by any of the EWAR you can put on a tower, either.
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#12 - 2014-07-10 05:56:36 UTC
Winter Archipelago wrote:
Sir SmashAlot wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
EDIT: I missed the part about building capitals... DO NOT BUILD AT A POS!! Use a station! You are inviting attacks if you build at a POS!


I prefer the terms EWAR-star / ECM-star, resist-star, and death-star, as "dickstar" is too general.


Historic:
POS Setups: Jump Bridge/Cyno Jam/Reactions, Moon Mine/Mining, Labs, WH


You missed damp-star. Mountains of damps with short range guns. Damps work every time and use half the resources of an ECM module :D

Drones couldn't care less about damps, the same as they couldn't care about ECM. A group of Domi's at range with Sentries may not be ideal, but they aren't going to be stopped by any of the EWAR you can put on a tower, either.


Not to mention damps wont affect dreads either.
Kukihara Akachi
Doomheim
#13 - 2014-07-11 06:46:46 UTC
Saleani Tsolyani wrote:
Daigotsu Kokujin wrote:
In this situation, is it better to have a dickstar or a deathstar and why?

I think the bastion mode addition to marauders in Rubicon pretty much put the nail in the coffin of dickstars.

Lol, good one. Show me one tower killmail that was done by a marauder fleet.
Allison A'vani
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2014-07-11 12:33:54 UTC
**** stars are only useful if you actually are part of or associated with an alliance that can capitalize on the seiged dreads that are on field. If not, then just do a standard death star.
Andrew Indy
Cleaning Crew
#15 - 2014-07-16 09:22:07 UTC
If you are going to go ****-star remember to at least put a few guns on it, web + point.

I killed a large ****-star with like 4 other guys in drone boats and we did not need any tank or take any damage at all. We also used a few shuttles to tank a large death-star with no webs while we raped it with BS's.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#16 - 2014-07-16 13:34:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Bronson Hughes
Quote:
ZOMG, that ECM battery killed my ship!

Said nobody ever.

ECM is useful for frustrating attackers and their logistics support but without guns, points, and webs they won't stop a determined attacker. (Mind you, neither will guns, points, and webs, but they do increase the level of determination required.)

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2014-07-16 15:14:03 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Quote:
ZOMG, that ECM battery killed my ship!

Said nobody ever.

ECM is useful for frustrating attackers and their logistics support but without guns, points, and webs they won't stop a determined attacker. (Mind you, neither will guns, points, and webs, but they do increase the level of determination required.)



Nothing is going to stop a determined attacker, that's the first rule of starbase defense. And no one but you mentioned ECM killing anybody. EWAR is there to discourage people from attacking. Nothing more. No one, but you, expects anything more from it either.
Paynus Maiassus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2014-07-17 19:26:04 UTC
The answer is none of the above, for reasons that others have described.

Yes, making components at a POS, hull at a station, along with clever acquisition of materials and use of the industry teams will make you competitive with nullsec builders. The endeavor is worth doing and can be done.

Concerning the POS, your key to survival only partly deals with POS set up.

1 - put your POS on a worthless moon in a remote area that only your team visits and has control of. Do not sell your caps where your POS is. If nobody looks for your POS, nobody will find it and if nobody finds it nobody will kill it. This is the cornerstone of your defense. Plan on losing a POS once every blue moon. Plan on moving it occasionally. Keep minimal materials in it. Run only the jobs necessary to keep component construction on pace with hull construction.

2 - as someone else intimated, the best setup really is to have a gazillion shield resistance hardeners on it so it takes a small group forever to reinforce it. Main thing is to deter anyone that is unwilling to commit caps from attacking it. For defenses a warp scrambler and a small gun will pop scouts poking around. Pretty much any other force will blow up anything you put outside the shield. They're just a waste of cash. If someone does attack, you want time to empty it out. Best protection is resists. Yeah Minmatar and Amarr are your best bets. Large of course.

3 - a big bloc isn't usually going to assemble a hundred dreads to stop a single lowsec cap builder. But in the event that someone does, you need a bat phone of someone else with supercaps and their own hundred dreads. Shadow Cartel at the smallest. PL maybe.

Exactly how much and what type of EWAR and DPS on your POS is left to taste. Resists, location, and bat phone are the answer.