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[Proposal] Transferable Loyalty Points

Author
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#21 - 2014-07-09 18:43:25 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:

And saying that you can currently somewhat work around a simple concept such as lp transfer is not a solid argument to not introduce it.


Because it means you could fight for gallente in FW, then when the time is right switch to fighting for Caldari and transfer your LP. That doesn't seem a little silly?
My Little Banker
Dead Space Investments
#22 - 2014-07-09 18:52:55 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:

And saying that you can currently somewhat work around a simple concept such as lp transfer is not a solid argument to not introduce it.


Because it means you could fight for gallente in FW, then when the time is right switch to fighting for Caldari and transfer your LP. That doesn't seem a little silly?

I feel like there might be a misunderstanding. I want to see the ability to transfer or sell say Caldari LP from one character to another. Not exchange Caldari LP for Gallente LP.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#23 - 2014-07-09 18:55:34 UTC
My Little Banker wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:

And saying that you can currently somewhat work around a simple concept such as lp transfer is not a solid argument to not introduce it.


Because it means you could fight for gallente in FW, then when the time is right switch to fighting for Caldari and transfer your LP. That doesn't seem a little silly?

I feel like there might be a misunderstanding. I want to see the ability to transfer or sell say Caldari LP from one character to another. Not exchange Caldari LP for Gallente LP.


yeah. sell caldari LP, then buy gallente LP.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Nolak Ataru
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2014-07-09 19:00:10 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
So...?

That's what npc standings are for, which of course make sense only if they're non-transferrable.

And saying that you can currently somewhat work around a simple concept such as lp transfer is not a solid argument to not introduce it.


NPC standings are non-transferable as are LP points. Your first argument doesn't make any sense.

And neither does your second. Please clarify
My Little Banker
Dead Space Investments
#25 - 2014-07-09 19:01:04 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
My Little Banker wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:

And saying that you can currently somewhat work around a simple concept such as lp transfer is not a solid argument to not introduce it.


Because it means you could fight for gallente in FW, then when the time is right switch to fighting for Caldari and transfer your LP. That doesn't seem a little silly?

I feel like there might be a misunderstanding. I want to see the ability to transfer or sell say Caldari LP from one character to another. Not exchange Caldari LP for Gallente LP.


yeah. sell caldari LP, then buy gallente LP.

I see nothing wrong with this LP should not be treated as some special thing because it has the word "Loyalty" in it. LP is essentially a credit given by a faction to a pilot for providing a service to be used to buy faction specific goods.
Nolak Ataru
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2014-07-09 19:10:15 UTC
My Little Banker wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
My Little Banker wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:

And saying that you can currently somewhat work around a simple concept such as lp transfer is not a solid argument to not introduce it.


Because it means you could fight for gallente in FW, then when the time is right switch to fighting for Caldari and transfer your LP. That doesn't seem a little silly?

I feel like there might be a misunderstanding. I want to see the ability to transfer or sell say Caldari LP from one character to another. Not exchange Caldari LP for Gallente LP.


yeah. sell caldari LP, then buy gallente LP.

I see nothing wrong with this LP should not be treated as some special thing because it has the word "Loyalty" in it. LP is essentially a credit given by a faction to a pilot for providing a service to be used to buy faction specific goods.


It is a credit given by a corporation or faction to a pilot for continued service to the corporation/faction. It's the same idea as getting pay raises after working at a company for a measurable length of time. AKA the "gold watch at 40".

With your logic, we can get rid of standings for missions, for FacPo, for FW....
My Little Banker
Dead Space Investments
#27 - 2014-07-09 19:17:05 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:


It is a credit given by a corporation or faction to a pilot for continued service to the corporation/faction. It's the same idea as getting pay raises after working at a company for a measurable length of time. AKA the "gold watch at 40".

With your logic, we can get rid of standings for missions, for FacPo, for FW....

It's payment for a service that is it. If you live in 0.0 and get LP from an ESS you are not in the employ of the Caldari Navy they are just paying you to kill pirates. Again I feel people are attaching a significance to LP because of the word "Loyalty". It's just a payment for services nothing more.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#28 - 2014-07-09 19:17:40 UTC
My Little Banker wrote:

I see nothing wrong with this LP should not be treated as some special thing because it has the word "Loyalty" in it. LP is essentially a credit given by a faction to a pilot for providing a service to be used to buy faction specific goods.


no its not credit, its not vouchers, its not any kind of currency.

its a quantification of how much a corp wants to give u discounts and access to neat items. it is an intangible asset and is as transferable as good will.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Nolak Ataru
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2014-07-09 19:35:33 UTC
My Little Banker wrote:
It's payment for a service that is it. If you live in 0.0 and get LP from an ESS you are not in the employ of the Caldari Navy they are just paying you to kill pirates. Again I feel people are attaching a significance to LP because of the word "Loyalty". It's just a payment for services nothing more.


You said it yourself. They are rewarding you for killing pirates. They aren't going to reward /pay someone else for work you did.
Aliventi
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry.
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#30 - 2014-07-09 20:00:29 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Well if you continually run L4s for Amarr, they're going to appreciate your efforts.

If Joe Ibis, some guy who runs L4s for Minmatar and is -10 with Amarr, comes along and you give him your LP, in a real world, the Amarr would probably stop giving you missions or, in an extreme instance, convict you of treason.

So no. Leave LP alone.

Jint Hikaru wrote:
They are called Loyalty Points for a reason. The NPC Corp is rewarding the pilot for his/her 'Loyalty'. Simple as that.

Why would a corporation go tot he trouble of keeping records of your loyalty standing and offering specific items based on this, if you are going to sell them to a person who that Corp hates.

So, I say, No to this idea.

Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
I siad no the last several times this came up and still say no for the usual reasons. It's loyalty reward from a corp to an individual. Not a loyalty reward to someone they never even heard of who happens to know someone they have.

An LP market would be no different that me finding a buyer for the LP, buying the items they told me to buy, and contracting the items to them for isk. It would only make a transaction like that far simpler and less time consuming. No matter what the LP will end up in the hands of those that did not grind the LP. And it would be no different then them just buying the module off the market. If LP were actually a reward for "loyalty" anything you bought with LP would be account bound so only the person who earned the LP would ever benefit from it. So quit giving me BS RP reasons why LP is a reward for "loyalty" because those that benfit the most from the LP never ground out the LP to begin with.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2014-07-09 20:07:37 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
So...?

That's what npc standings are for, which of course make sense only if they're non-transferrable.

And saying that you can currently somewhat work around a simple concept such as lp transfer is not a solid argument to not introduce it.


NPC standings are non-transferable as are LP points. Your first argument doesn't make any sense.

And neither does your second. Please clarify
I'm a proud member of Gallente Militia.

I cannot earn Caldari LP because SPROT npc corp hates me, since I kill it's members. Makes sense.

However I can:
. Buy a hookbill
. Fly a hookbill
. Produce a hookbill

I can even dock in a SPROT station, since GalMil has occupied them all. :) That means that, if I had SPROT LP, I could cash it in for faction gear. Right now, even with my terrible standings.

So what difference would it make to all you lore-lovers if I got the LP from another player instead of, say, having it from when I wasn't in GalMil?

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#32 - 2014-07-09 20:13:52 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:


So what difference would it make to all you lore-lovers if I got the LP from another player instead of, say, having it from when I wasn't in GalMil?


what difference would it make if i could buy sec status and standings off other players?

U get rewards from NPC's without doing the work that was supposed to be done.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Grenn Putubi
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2014-07-09 20:28:35 UTC
I was actually thinking about this last night without having seen this thread first. I like the idea of transferring LP, but I think treating it like isk would be a bad way to handle it. Instead I think it should be handled a bit more like Aurum is, where the currency itself is not transferable between characters, but tokens worth a certain amount of Aur are as long as they haven't been consumed.

What I propose would be a new item on the LP stores, LP vouchers, which could be purchased for LP+isk and then sold on the market, traded, or contracted like any other commodity. Each corporation could charge a different amount for purchasing vouchers and there would need to always be some sort of depreciation of value involved, like converting CONCORD LP into LP for another corp. Vouchers could be available for 1000, 10k, 100k, 1mil LP amounts with costs for purchasing the vouchers being higher than their redeemable value. So at Corp A's LP store a 1000 LP voucher may cost you 1200 LP + 10k isk and at Corp B's LP store the fee for a similar 1000 LP voucher may be 1500 LP + 10k isk. Adjust the fees as you see fit for the different corps, but it's reasonable to assume that 'Good Will' involves doing favors for people other than the one that earned it upon request. It's just a matter of how much Good Will it's going to cost you to get them to do the favor for you. A humble mining corp may offer the vouchers cheaper than a military organization simply because they're not as worried about the competition getting their goods.

The vouchers aren't currency in themselves and aren't used directly to purchase things, instead once you purchase the vouchers you redeem them like you would an Aur token to add the LP value of the voucher to your journal. Since LP is already sold in game through various trading methods having these vouchers available would streamline the procedure and lessen the risk involved for all parties. It would also allow players that have large quantities of stored up LP with no reason or desire to redeem it for items offered on the LP store to simply convert their LP into vouchers and sell them on the market.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2014-07-09 20:29:14 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:


So what difference would it make to all you lore-lovers if I got the LP from another player instead of, say, having it from when I wasn't in GalMil?


what difference would it make if i could buy sec status and standings off other players?

U get rewards from NPC's without doing the work that was supposed to be done.
I pay somebody else to do the work, just as you do everytime you buy an item, service or even character.

Actually, if I payed for LP instead of faction gear, I would even do part of the work myself (flying to the npc station, collecting any needed tags, chips, items, etc.).

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Grenn Putubi
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2014-07-09 20:31:47 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:

what difference would it make if i could buy sec status and standings off other players?

U get rewards from NPC's without doing the work that was supposed to be done.


For the record you can purchase NPC standings from other players, it's done all the time. You just get in fleet with someone that's running missions and they split the rewards with you. You can be on the other side of the galaxy and still get the standing increases in this way and it's commonly used by people that have gotten themselves to kill on sight status with an Empire so they can reach a point of being able to travel freely through their space again.

And can't you turn in tags for Sec status now? How's that any different than purchasing it directly from another player? Buy tags, turn in for Sec status.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#36 - 2014-07-09 20:32:02 UTC
The same could be said for trading corp and faction standings and sec status.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#37 - 2014-07-09 20:34:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Grenn Putubi wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:

what difference would it make if i could buy sec status and standings off other players?

U get rewards from NPC's without doing the work that was supposed to be done.


For the record you can purchase NPC standings from other players, it's done all the time. You just get in fleet with someone that's running missions and they split the rewards with you. You can be on the other side of the galaxy and still get the standing increases in this way and it's commonly used by people that have gotten themselves to kill on sight status with an Empire so they can reach a point of being able to travel freely through their space again.

And can't you turn in tags for Sec status now? How's that any different than purchasing it directly from another player? Buy tags, turn in for Sec status.


nah u have to be nearby to get the standing boost. and its not trading standing or sec status. one person does not lower their own standing or sec status and give it to u. This is why tags are not the same. Tags ARE in fact like tokens that u hand in for bacon. They ARE tangible assets.

Trading un tangible assets like LP's is different.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

My Little Banker
Dead Space Investments
#38 - 2014-07-09 20:36:24 UTC
Grenn Putubi wrote:
I was actually thinking about this last night without having seen this thread first. I like the idea of transferring LP, but I think treating it like isk would be a bad way to handle it. Instead I think it should be handled a bit more like Aurum is, where the currency itself is not transferable between characters, but tokens worth a certain amount of Aur are as long as they haven't been consumed.

What I propose would be a new item on the LP stores, LP vouchers, which could be purchased for LP+isk and then sold on the market, traded, or contracted like any other commodity. Each corporation could charge a different amount for purchasing vouchers and there would need to always be some sort of depreciation of value involved, like converting CONCORD LP into LP for another corp. Vouchers could be available for 1000, 10k, 100k, 1mil LP amounts with costs for purchasing the vouchers being higher than their redeemable value. So at Corp A's LP store a 1000 LP voucher may cost you 1200 LP + 10k isk and at Corp B's LP store the fee for a similar 1000 LP voucher may be 1500 LP + 10k isk. Adjust the fees as you see fit for the different corps, but it's reasonable to assume that 'Good Will' involves doing favors for people other than the one that earned it upon request. It's just a matter of how much Good Will it's going to cost you to get them to do the favor for you. A humble mining corp may offer the vouchers cheaper than a military organization simply because they're not as worried about the competition getting their goods.

The vouchers aren't currency in themselves and aren't used directly to purchase things, instead once you purchase the vouchers you redeem them like you would an Aur token to add the LP value of the voucher to your journal. Since LP is already sold in game through various trading methods having these vouchers available would streamline the procedure and lessen the risk involved for all parties. It would also allow players that have large quantities of stored up LP with no reason or desire to redeem it for items offered on the LP store to simply convert their LP into vouchers and sell them on the market.

I don't particulate like this way of dealing with LP as it adds an unneeded layer of complexity. This also strays away from my original reason for this proposal for allowing 0.0 players that do not have access to close by NPC stations a way to use their LP.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2014-07-09 20:41:29 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
The same could be said for trading corp and faction standings and sec status.
Sure, but that would introduce notable changes to actual gameplay.

As a GalMil, no human player will ever notice if I bought the hookbill that I already can fly from a trader in Jita or from a SPROT loyalty store.

OTOH, I assure you someone may notice if GalMil could shoot at legal wartargets in Jita without even having to dodge the Caldari Navy.

Can we please discuss gameplay instead of npc's feelings?

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Grenn Putubi
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2014-07-09 20:48:23 UTC
It definitely add some complexity to the issue, but I disagree that it's unnecessary. Being able to transfer LP directly from 1 character to another without any depreciation in value or cost involved in the transfer at all is a bad idea.

Transferring LP would be an extremely powerful option for large organizations of players allowing them to have everyone lump their LP into a single character to quickly purchase the most expensive items available without any real cost invovled. Doing it without having to travel to a station owned by the NPC corp would make it even more exploitable by having players never even have to travel to spend their LP, just transfer it to an LP bank alt you keep at an appropriate station.

No, vouchers would definitely be a necessary step of the process, not only to avoid exploits like I've described but also to help CCP control the value of LP. CONCORD LP is extremely valuable, imagine if everyone in an incursion community agreed to sell their LP to a single character at the end of an incursion. Hundreds of thousands, possibly millions, of LP are awarded at the end of every incursion and 1 character just got all of it and he's already sitting in a CONCORD station waiting to trade it all in for implants and BPCs. Without some sort of conversion or transfer cost involved that's simply too exploitable.