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Sentry Drone Tiericide?
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RangerSmurf
Pistols for Pandas
#1 - 2014-07-09 00:30:13 UTC
So when some buddies were bashing a POS a few people had some sentries out, one plopped out some navy gardes, so I got to checking to see the difference since they weren't that expensive to maybe use them for some under skilled characters and when I clicked compare I had to do a double take...

The dps stats for all three versions of the garde are identical... 1.7 dmg mod, 4 sec refire, 64 therm dmg... and I got to asking myself...

"Ok, so why even bother with the hurtful 3+weeks of sentry 5 anymore?" When did this tiericide of sentry drones happen and why don't they follow the same 1.6 to 1.92 dmg mod difference between t1 and t2 like, I don't know, every other drone class?

Kinda peeved that I had put so much time into t2 sentries on my main now if I had known that was going to happen, sad panda :(
Paranoid Loyd
#2 - 2014-07-09 00:37:57 UTC
Damage is not the only stat that matters.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Garandras
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2014-07-09 00:38:10 UTC
Whats the price difference?
RangerSmurf
Pistols for Pandas
#4 - 2014-07-09 00:39:32 UTC
Damage is the only stat they changed, and they changed it to all be the same, hence tiericide.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#5 - 2014-07-09 00:39:36 UTC
Still better range, tracking, and HP. The skill itself also gives access to "augmented" drones which are better than T2
TheMercenaryKing
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#6 - 2014-07-09 00:41:01 UTC
i think how they are affected by skills also changed. If i remember correctly, navy drones do not get bonus damage from racial drone skills and T2 are still the damage kings on an all V character.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2014-07-09 00:41:21 UTC
T2 sentry drones now benefit from the T2 specialization skills. So you'll get more damage out of them than the faction sentries as a result.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
RangerSmurf
Pistols for Pandas
#8 - 2014-07-09 00:48:37 UTC
Actually, maybe you should check your specs again Rowells, range is the same... and as to the main point and question of the thread, why bother spending however many 3-4 weeks training into T2 sentry drones if you can just cut off at the navy versions for the same stats and better ehp?

But I did up the numbers, and the bonus for the specialization skill is trivial, on a snake it comes out to like maybe 30 dps with 3 drone dmg mods, so yeah, not so helpful or worth the time for training imo. Otherwise only diff between navy and T2 is tracking, .036 (T2) vs .037? (navy), for a oh so barely slightly dps tradeoff with the specialization skill, I'd call that close enough to the same to not really matter.

If they knowingly tiericided the sentry drones separate from all other drone classes, they should have at least altered their remaining useful stats to even a small extent, but they didn't.

And I'm not in game right now to check prices, but I can guarantee that the T1 garde now gives you immensely superior bang for your buck than either the navy or T2.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#9 - 2014-07-09 00:54:57 UTC
Working as Intended. T1 is meant to be efficient for isk to reward.
T2 & Navy are meant to be expensive for slightly increased performance. T2 normally slightly higher DPS stats, Navy slightly higher EHP type stats or lower CPU type things.
RangerSmurf
Pistols for Pandas
#10 - 2014-07-09 01:03:10 UTC
So by that token why are the rest of the drone classes still following the old rules/spec differential? Aren't they concerned that T1 drones should be as helpful as T1 sentries? Or that the grind for T2 drones should be as arduous and barely helpful for T2 drones as for T2 sentries? I would take this time to then train into T2 heavies, but if they are going to keep going with this direction then I think I'm just going to be happy with my gecko and spend those skills somewhere else where they might be more useful.

And you can find plenty of examples throughout the game where T2 is far superior to any T1/meta... as well as plenty of examples where T2 is actually worse off than several T1/meta versions.

So if they are going to start screwing with mod stats they need to make sure they do it evenly across the board because if they don't then they can't say its for one reason or another because you will be able to find those exceptions.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#11 - 2014-07-09 01:27:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Chris Winter
RangerSmurf wrote:
But I did up the numbers, and the bonus for the specialization skill is trivial, on a snake it comes out to like maybe 30 dps with 3 drone dmg mods, so yeah, not so helpful or worth the time for training imo.

Your math is bad. The specialization skill adds, unsurprisingly, up to 10% additional damage at level 5. The only way you could get only an additional 30 dps is if you're only doing 300dps with drones on a rattlesnake, which I find a little hard to believe.

But overall, you're not wrong. They changed the T2 sentries to be like T2 guns--same base states as meta 4, only additional damage comes from the specialization skill. However, they completely forgot that T2 guns also benefit from T2 ammo to justify the long training time, which isn't the case for drones. They also failed to consider that having to train 4 different specializations for one weapon system is rather awful.

The ironic part is that one of their goals with the drone changes was to make them LESS skill-intensive. They ended up doing exactly the opposite.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#12 - 2014-07-09 01:38:44 UTC
Your right, T1 drones in other classes should be buffed to match T2 drones before spec skills.
RangerSmurf
Pistols for Pandas
#13 - 2014-07-09 02:50:57 UTC
The 30 dps difference on the snake was before 3 dmg mods... went from 383 to 413 without damage mods. When using 3 damage mods it went from 640 to 690, (which is sad because my drone dps on the snake was higher before they made these changes, at 701) but still, mostly trivial difference when taking into account the month of additional training to gain said additional dmg. Or if one was to train the racial spec up to 5, then you are looking at least an additional month on top of that :(
Nikolai Lachance
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2014-07-09 03:47:45 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Still better range, tracking, and HP. The skill itself also gives access to "augmented" drones which are better than T2


There are no augmented sentry drones.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2014-07-09 05:01:47 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:


The ironic part is that one of their goals with the drone changes was to make them LESS skill-intensive. They ended up doing exactly the opposite.



They made them more effective for low skill newb characters, its no longer essential to get interfacing to V and get T2 sentries before your effective. However they added months to the training needed to be optimal with sentries.

Drones are now easier to get into but far far harder to make really effective.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#16 - 2014-07-09 05:09:16 UTC
Nikolai Lachance wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Still better range, tracking, and HP. The skill itself also gives access to "augmented" drones which are better than T2

There are no augmented sentry drones.

Also, all 'Augmented' drones are horrible due to their split (read: “reduced”) damage.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2014-07-09 05:24:48 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
The only stats that are different are HP and tracking speed.
EHP (Average resists):
Garde II: 4,143
FN Garde: 6,270
Tracking Speed:
Garde II: .036 rad/sec
FN Garde: .0378 rad/sec

Base damage is exactly the same, however assuming you're using FN Gardes because you have SDI IV, (and assuming you have DI IV since that's a prerequisite for SDI) you get about 46 DPS per FN Garde.

Assuming you make the train for SDI 5 and the half an hour or so you need for Gallente Drone Spec 1, Garde II will get you about 49 DPS per drone.
Add a few more days of training for GDS IV and you get about 51 DPS. This is before bonuses and this is only for one drone.

So you get 11% DPS increase if you train SDI 5 and GDS IV with T2 drones than if you hadn't trained either skill and only used FN Gardes. You'd also be using much cheaper drones.

So, on the Rattlesnake, for comparison purposes, your two FN Gardes at SDI IV and DI IV are doing 343 DPS (before modules). With the T2 Gardes, SDI V and GDS IV you're doing 386 DPS. And this is before drone damage amps or rigs.

With everything to V on the Snake two Garde IIs get 421 DPS. Two FN Gardes get 383 DPS. With 3 T2 DDAs that rises to 702 and 639. So you get about 63 DPS more on the Rattlesnake with T2 drones at about a quarter of the cost.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#18 - 2014-07-09 13:43:36 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:

Drones are now easier to get into but far far harder to make really effective.

Except they're also harder to "get into" since you need Drones 3 before you can train any combat drone, and have separate skills for lights and mediums...
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2014-07-09 13:48:39 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

...maths...


And that should pretty much answer the question of why it's worth it.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2014-07-09 14:28:24 UTC
RangerSmurf wrote:
Actually, maybe you should check your specs again Rowells, range is the same... and as to the main point and question of the thread, why bother spending however many 3-4 weeks training into T2 sentry drones if you can just cut off at the navy versions for the same stats and better ehp?

But I did up the numbers, and the bonus for the specialization skill is trivial, on a snake it comes out to like maybe 30 dps with 3 drone dmg mods, so yeah, not so helpful or worth the time for training imo. Otherwise only diff between navy and T2 is tracking, .036 (T2) vs .037? (navy), for a oh so barely slightly dps tradeoff with the specialization skill, I'd call that close enough to the same to not really matter.

If they knowingly tiericided the sentry drones separate from all other drone classes, they should have at least altered their remaining useful stats to even a small extent, but they didn't.

And I'm not in game right now to check prices, but I can guarantee that the T1 garde now gives you immensely superior bang for your buck than either the navy or T2.



if you are a new character with 40 M SP you might think like that. But after some of us approach 200 M SP, level 5 on everything for each tiny% of damage starts to make sense.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
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