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Why new people are critical to EvE

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Matilda Cecilia Fock
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#61 - 2014-07-06 22:19:17 UTC
Tixx Enaka wrote:
Nexus Day wrote:
First, I will never understand why people would want people to leave their subscription game. Yet we hear the "maybe EvE isn't for you" or "go play WoW all the time". Do you understand how subscription games are funded?

That is reason number one new players are important to EvE, they pay cash. There are exceptions, but for the most part new players pay for subs. They also pay for plex as wealth accumulation in this game can be very slow at the start. There are veterans who put their money where their mouth is, but for new players it is almost a given.

Reason number two is they buy off the market. They do not come into being in a guild that produces all that their members need. Instead they grind this and that and go to the market to buy the next step in their ascension. There is a reason why items that a bitter vet wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole sell on the market.

But more importantly, imo, new players bring new ideas. In a game that bills itself as a sandbox with extremely limited content provided by the developers new ideas are the only thing that keep this game fresh. Another Hulkageddon or permit scam or insidious corporate takeover or blue donut will not keep people interested for very long. The next big thing will not come from someone with 15000 posts defending things the way they are. It will most likely come from someone just joining the game that says "what if?"

tl:dr give the kid a chance.


I'm relatively new and I say NO to the tl;dr. Why? Because 99% of new players that join have no clue what EvE is and immediately start saying "change this! That's too hard! Let me buy skill points!".

Basically they walk into Burger King and complain there are no Big Mac's. Whiny, entitled, useless kids that want everything their way at the expense of others.

Why don't they just leave and play the myriad of other games that cater to that mentality. Oh right. They get bored.

tl;dr. Stop trying to ruin a game I like. Stop trying to make everything the same. Go play WoW.


No my dear, new players who don't like EVE just quit during the trial. They don't want to change anything. They are for the three months run of a mainstream MMO, EVE completely fails to provide that and they quit before even subscribing. This is how EVE has been tried out, according to CCP's own words, by 10 million unique users in 10 years.

Q: Should we be worried? A: Nope. (...) Worry a lot if Fozzie, Masterplan, Rise, Veritas, Bettik, Ytterbium, Scarpia, Arrow, or even Greyscale leaves. Worry a little if Punkturis, karkur, SoniClover, Affinity, Goliath, or Xhagen leaves.
Yarda Black
The Black Redemption
#62 - 2014-07-06 22:22:42 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Very few, if any, other gaming company allows such a small subset of the players demographics to have so much input on game design


They actually stopped doing that once. Turned out the small subset was slightly bigger than expected.

Fortunately for CCP they had an excellent reputation and early mechanics created a playerbase with a large number of adults. So after some "burning" everybody hugged each other and all was good again.

You know I tried other "official" forums? Gave it a tenth of what I put moderators here through. Got emo rage mails within minutes. One even banned me.

So yeah. I may disagree about certain changes. But trying to say something actually makes sense in EVE. Somebody may even listen to it. Every once in a while. Thats a pretty fine and difficult line to walk on. I think we should be quite pleased about CCP trying to pull that off.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#63 - 2014-07-06 22:23:05 UTC
Just for the record, most of us aren't against new people coming to the game to enjoy the game for what it is. We're against people coming to this game & demanding that things be changed to make it more like a themepark to suit their desires. EVE is not a suitable game for that kind of person, who cares if they leave?

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#64 - 2014-07-06 22:27:25 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Just for the record, most of us aren't against new people coming to the game to enjoy the game for what it is. We're against people coming to this game & demanding that things be changed to make it more like a themepark to suit their desires. EVE is not a suitable game for that kind of person, who cares if they leave?


I can't help but think that switching 'new people' with 'bitter vet' in the quoted statement would be as equally accurate. Tell me they haven't already turned null into a themepark.

Mr Epeen Cool
Lady Areola Fappington
#65 - 2014-07-06 22:31:23 UTC
IIRC, I think CCP has mentioned that, they don't even count new accounts as existing, till they've been in the game for 90 days. Takes about that long for a genuine newbie to figure out if EVE is the game for them, or not.

EVE is also the only game I know of, where parts of the playerbase rabidly obsess and care about things like "PCU", "% new player retention", "Profit/loss", "which devs are leaving" and what have you. I mean, you can make numbers say anything you want with the right context. Seems like all anyone is doing when they bring up those numbers, is trying to validate their own viewpoint. I've never seen anyone say "Well, I thought X, but looking at Y PCU, I was wrong."

Really, there's only three "performance metrics" we as normal players need be concerned with. "Is the game still on-line?", "Are there people playing?", and "Is it still worth the price of a sub?"

Anything else is for the accountants at CCP to worry about.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#66 - 2014-07-06 22:32:55 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Just for the record, most of us aren't against new people coming to the game to enjoy the game for what it is. We're against people coming to this game & demanding that things be changed to make it more like a themepark to suit their desires. EVE is not a suitable game for that kind of person, who cares if they leave?


I can't help but think that switching 'new people' with 'bitter vet' in the quoted statement would be as equally accurate. Tell me they haven't already turned null into a themepark.

Mr Epeen Cool


It depends entirely on the person but the OP was enquiring about new players, not the Dinsdale's.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#67 - 2014-07-06 23:47:11 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
EVE is also the only game I know of, where parts of the playerbase rabidly obsess and care about things like "PCU", "% new player retention", "Profit/loss", "which devs are leaving" and what have you. I mean, you can make numbers say anything you want with the right context. Seems like all anyone is doing when they bring up those numbers, is trying to validate their own viewpoint. I've never seen anyone say "Well, I thought X, but looking at Y PCU, I was wrong."


When people in EVE claim to care about things such as how high or low the PCU count is & whether CCP is profiting or not, they're always using it as an attempt to prove that their suggestion is correct. Take everyone's favorite conspiracy theorist, Dinsdale as an example. EVE is clearly dying because of PCU counts. Or how about when Ripard made a push for ISK tanking? "CCP will lose profit" was his calling card.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Lady Areola Fappington
#68 - 2014-07-07 00:23:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Areola Fappington
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
EVE is also the only game I know of, where parts of the playerbase rabidly obsess and care about things like "PCU", "% new player retention", "Profit/loss", "which devs are leaving" and what have you. I mean, you can make numbers say anything you want with the right context. Seems like all anyone is doing when they bring up those numbers, is trying to validate their own viewpoint. I've never seen anyone say "Well, I thought X, but looking at Y PCU, I was wrong."


When people in EVE claim to care about things such as how high or low the PCU count is & whether CCP is profiting or not, they're always using it as an attempt to prove that their suggestion is correct. Take everyone's favorite conspiracy theorist, Dinsdale as an example. EVE is clearly dying because of PCU counts. Or how about when Ripard made a push for ISK tanking? "CCP will lose profit" was his calling card.



Surely true, yes. It gets even funnier when two people, nominally on the same "side" (mostly grr goons), use the same datapoint to prove totally opposite theories.



Obviously, the price of plex going up proves both CCP failing, and the nullsec cartels RMTing money.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#69 - 2014-07-07 00:27:15 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
EVE is also the only game I know of, where parts of the playerbase rabidly obsess and care about things like "PCU", "% new player retention", "Profit/loss", "which devs are leaving" and what have you. I mean, you can make numbers say anything you want with the right context. Seems like all anyone is doing when they bring up those numbers, is trying to validate their own viewpoint. I've never seen anyone say "Well, I thought X, but looking at Y PCU, I was wrong."


When people in EVE claim to care about things such as how high or low the PCU count is & whether CCP is profiting or not, they're always using it as an attempt to prove that their suggestion is correct. Take everyone's favorite conspiracy theorist, Dinsdale as an example. EVE is clearly dying because of PCU counts. Or how about when Ripard made a push for ISK tanking? "CCP will lose profit" was his calling card.


How else are they going to push a narrative for change that's fundamentally wrong without tying it to a less completely unpalatable concept?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Arkady Romanov
Whole Squid
#70 - 2014-07-07 02:21:42 UTC
All my good posts in this thread got nuked and now I'm sad.

Whole Squid: Get Inked.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2014-07-07 06:56:32 UTC
I'd originally held the position that all new players should be helped and nurtured, so that they can grow the EVE playerbase and make a richer universe for us to interact in. I've vehemently argued with Jenn and others who I'd felt had an inexplicable "throw them in the deep end is good" philosophy.

I now think that the kind of new players is important.

I'm paraphrasing a quote I read (I can't remember where) about the ranking and review process in Silicon Valley tech companies:

In a good culture, A players want to be surrounded by other A players. In a collapsing culture, A players want to be surrounded by B players.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Serene Repose
#72 - 2014-07-07 07:04:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Serene Repose
We've opened recruiting kiosks in the maternity wards of all the world's major hospitals.
It's never too early to start your EVE career and we're really after that new blood.

The ever-expanding business model is a self-perpetuating myth.
I did that last crack, so I must do this next crack.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Lady Areola Fappington
#73 - 2014-07-07 07:11:54 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
I'd originally held the position that all new players should be helped and nurtured, so that they can grow the EVE playerbase and make a richer universe for us to interact in. I've vehemently argued with Jenn and others who I'd felt had an inexplicable "throw them in the deep end is good" philosophy.

I now think that the kind of new players is important.

I'm paraphrasing a quote I read (I can't remember where) about the ranking and review process in Silicon Valley tech companies:

In a good culture, A players want to be surrounded by other A players. In a collapsing culture, A players want to be surrounded by B players.



Nice quote, I like.

Yeah, it's all about the KIND of new player we attract to EVE. EVE has never been a survive on churn style MMO, like other games. CCP makes their buck by attracting long term, dedicated customers while quickly weeding out those unsuitable for the game.

It really blows a certain type of mentality's mind, that a company would choose not to do business with someone. Even worse that said company actively takes steps to make themselves unattractive to the people they don't want business from.

So yup, throw em in the deep end, hope for the best, and encourage the one's who look like they're getting it. It makes our community stronger.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#74 - 2014-07-07 07:31:59 UTC
Well if you drop enough of em' to deep end it will eventually turn in to a shallow end ... P

Besides we do need new players, my corp for one is always in for more cannon fodder ... Twisted

Though we admittedly prefer the quality fodder over the usual variety.
Eternity 1
Doomheim
#75 - 2014-07-07 07:50:29 UTC
A portion of the playerbase like to consider themselves as hardcore gaming badasses because they play EVE, and are extremely sensitive to anything which might alter that status, even mere discussion about the nature of EVE and of how it might evolve. CCP are happy to pander to them, which is why you won't see any real change in the way CCP attracts new players. To attract new players you'd need to offer something that EVE doesn't currently offer, and the consequences of that would be a tsunami of bittervet tears. So, the game will continue mostly as it has done before, and that's that.
Raider Ray
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#76 - 2014-07-07 08:20:33 UTC
Imho the eve/newbie issue is not that eve itself is flawed as a sandbox game. It simply has no bridge of transition from the mainstream mmo market to itself. Thus, people lose interest within the very first minutes/hours.

More people are needed in the game. So please CCP build station content so that i can walk around at the local pub and have coctails while my corp is wardecked!
voetius
Grundrisse
#77 - 2014-07-07 08:27:50 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
I'd originally held the position that all new players should be helped and nurtured, so that they can grow the EVE playerbase and make a richer universe for us to interact in. I've vehemently argued with Jenn and others who I'd felt had an inexplicable "throw them in the deep end is good" philosophy.

I now think that the kind of new players is important.

I'm paraphrasing a quote I read (I can't remember where) about the ranking and review process in Silicon Valley tech companies:

In a good culture, A players want to be surrounded by other A players. In a collapsing culture, A players want to be surrounded by B players.


I saw that quote in the biography of Steve Jobs by Walter Isaacson (sp?) though it's quite possible that you saw it elsewhere. A good read as well :)
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#78 - 2014-07-07 08:31:23 UTC
Chewytowel Haklar wrote:
What if I can just join a queue and have a 1 vs 1 engagement with a prefit ship of my choosing that I can lose over and over again. Perhaps I can learn faster in such a battle arena without having to lose my ships in the process, but those provided by the queue. :D

EDIt: Oh and you cannot get podded so you can try out various implant configurations without worrying about loosing them.


Not joking, that would kill eve. The 4 hours of searching for a fight is tedious and boring but necesary for the junky adrenaline rush. Remove that and people wont even undock.

It would be an interesting social experiment though: How many people don't give a toss about the many-many-many mechanics and content updates. Instead, how many people just want to kill each other.
Yarda Black
The Black Redemption
#79 - 2014-07-07 08:37:41 UTC
Im gonna be a bit mean and break up your post. It will be easier to compare our opinions that way tho:

Eternity 1 wrote:
A portion of the playerbase like to consider themselves as hardcore gaming badasses because they play EVE


I know right? How many games still pull that off? I read a thread about hardcore mode games a while back. Most went mainstream and then.... died.

Eternity 1 wrote:
are extremely sensitive to anything which might alter that status


True. If I paint my house blue I will resist the suggestion it should be red. Because I like blue.
The current player base is playing EVE because of the way it is now. Any change risks people leaving. Well... the emo rage unsub threads following every new thing would suggest that anyway.
But EVE has changed in fact. Quite a bit.

Eternity 1 wrote:
CCP are happy to pander to them


If you mean they want to retain customers... I can see how a company might be into that. I even understand the benefit of retaining a known incomestream compared to a risky future one.

Eternity 1 wrote:
To attract new players you'd need to offer something that EVE doesn't currently offer


Not new players. Different players.

Eternity 1 wrote:
So, the game will continue mostly as it has done before, and that's that.


Awesome. I'll keep scraping cash together for my subs then.
Mithandra
B.O.P Supplication For Glorious
Dracarys.
#80 - 2014-07-07 08:38:51 UTC
I see a lot of "New players don't understand what eve is about"

Obviously they don't; they are NEW, just like we all were at one point.

EVE is Darwinian in its brutality. Some live, Some die, some get to (figuratively) breed, others fade away lonely and unloved.

New players are not the enemy, the cult of the bitter epeen vet is.

Get new players into your corp, show them the other side of EVE, the cooperative, exciting, enjoyable, survivable, manic, fantastic side, instead of the usual noobie experience of sudden violent and repeated death at the hands of a hate spouting bitter vet.

Some will get it and stay, some wont and leave. The effort on your part will be rewarded in the future as the number of pilots willing to fly with you increases.

Just my one isks worth

Eve is the dark haired, totally hot emo gothchild of the gaming community